0001 01 IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS 01 FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT 02 02 03 CELIA J. CHIU; DENISE BROWN; * 03 VERONICA C. JENKINS; DENISE * 04 KIRKE; ALFRED G. KIRKE; AND * 04 KENNETH R. JOHNSON * 05 * 05 Plaintiffs/Appellees, * 06 * 06 VS. * 07 * 07 PLANO INDEPENDENT SCHOOL * 08 DISTRICT, ET AL. * 08 * 09 Defendants, * CIVIL ACTION NO. 09 * 00-40613 10 * 10 JAMES DAVIS, DR., PISD CENTRAL * 11 CLUSTER AREA ASSISTANT * 11 SUPERINTENDENT; MARILYN BROOKS, * 12 ASSOCIATE SUPERINTENDENT FOR * 12 CURRICULUM AND INSTRUCTIONS; * 13 JAMES WOHLGEHAGEN, DR.; * 13 ROXANNE BURLESON, PRINCIPAL * 14 HAGGARD MIDDLE SCHOOL; CORKY * 14 CRISWELL, PRINCIPAL HENDRICK * 15 MIDDLE SCHOOL; BEVERLY SELLERS, * 15 PRINCIPAL WILSON MIDDLE SCHOOL, * 16 * 16 Defendants/Appellants. * 17 18 19 ******************************************** 20 ORAL DEPOSITION OF 21 DR. JAMES WOHLGEHAGEN 22 OCTOBER 4, 2000 23 ******************************************** 24 25 0002 01 ORAL DEPOSITION OF DR. JAMES WOHLGEHAGEN, 02 produced as a witness at the instance of the 03 Plaintiffs, and duly sworn, was taken in the 04 above-styled and numbered cause on the 4th day of 05 October, 2000, from 9:16 a.m. to 12:24 p.m., before 06 Sunny Schaen, a CSR in and for the State of Texas, 07 reported stenographically, at the offices of the Plano 08 Independent School District, 2700 West 15th Street, 09 Plano, Texas 75075, pursuant to the Federal Rules of 10 Civil Procedure and the provision stated on the record. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0003 01 A P P E A R A N C E S 02 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 02 Mr. William Charles Bundren 03 Attorney at Law 03 P. O. Box 702647 04 Dallas, Texas 75370 04 (972) 630-3555 05 05 Mr. Kelly Rogers 06 8 Riva Ridge 06 Frisco, Texas 75034 07 (972)335-5421 07 08 08 09 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: 09 Mr. Charles J. Crawford 10 ABERNATHY ROEDER BOYD & JOPLIN, P.C. 10 1700 Redbud Boulevard 11 Suite 300 11 P.O. Box 1210 12 McKinney, Texas 75070-1210 12 (214) 544-4000 13 13 14 ALSO PRESENT: Ms. Ronni Jenkins 14 Mr. Kenneth R. Johnson 15 Mr. Alfred Kirke 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 0004 01 I N D E X 01 02 WITNESS PAGE 02 DR. JAMES WOHLGEHAGEN 03 03 EXAMINATION 04 BY: MR. BUNDREN 5 04 05 05 06 EXHIBITS INDEX 06 07 EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED 07 08 65 Affidavit of Dr. James Wohlgehagen 104 08 09 09 10 10 11 11 12 12 13 13 14 14 15 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 0005 01 P R O C E E D I N G S 02 REPORTER'S NOTE: The following was stated on the 03 record in the deposition of Marilyn Brooks, and by 04 agreement of all parties will also apply for this 05 deposition. 06 MR. BUNDREN: Do you want to take this 07 under the Rules? 08 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes. 09 DR. JAMES WOLHGEHAGEN, 10 having being first duly sworn, testified as follows: 11 EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. BUNDREN: 13 Q. What is your name? 14 A. It's Jim Wohlgehagen. 15 Q. Dr. Wohlgehagen, my name is Charles Bundren. 16 I'm an attorney. I represent some parents that have 17 sued you and the school district. Do you know that? 18 A. I do. 19 Q. I don't believe we've had a chance to meet 20 prior to today, have we? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. This is a deposition. It's being taken 23 under oath, prior to the time the case gets called to 24 trial in front of Judge Brown, a United States District 25 Court judge in Sherman. You understand that? 0006 01 A. I do. 02 Q. Okay. Have you ever been deposed before? 03 A. No. 04 Q. Have you ever testified under oath before? 05 A. No. 06 Q. Okay. I know you've probably seen some 07 television clips back and forth about certain people 08 testifying under oath, and I want to assure you that's 09 not the way it needs to be done, okay. You need to 10 testify truthfully. You understand that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. I had to bring that up because of the debates 13 last night and it's on my mind. You understand 14 that you can be held liable for perjury if you testify 15 falsely today? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. And that this testimony can be used at 18 the time of trial. If you testify inconsistent at 19 trial to what testimony you give today, I'm entitled to 20 call that to the Court's attention and to the jury's 21 attention. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. If I ask you a question that you don't hear, 24 I'd like for you to ask me to repeat it before you try 25 to answer it. Will you do that? 0007 01 A. I sure will. 02 Q. If you don't understand my questions, would 03 you ask me to repeat it before you try to answer it? 04 A. Yes, I will. 05 Q. And it's okay to nod and give gestures, but we 06 need words. 07 A. Okay. 08 Q. If you could speak up loudly so the court 09 reporter can take down your verbal response. 10 A. Sure. 11 Q. Thank you. Have you ever been convicted of a 12 crime? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Okay. What is your date of birth? 15 A. 11/10/46. 16 Q. Where were you born? 17 A. In Detroit, Michigan. 18 Q. How old are you today? 19 A. I'm 53. 20 Q. What is your social security number? 21 A. ***-**-****. 22 Q. Give me the last four digits. 23 A. 3574. 24 Q. And what is your driver's license number? 25 A. I don't have a clue. 0008 01 Q. Do you have it with you? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Go ahead and just read it to me, if you would. 04 A. *********. 05 Q. That's a Texas operator's license? 06 A. It is. 07 Q. How long have you lived in Texas? 08 A. For 25 years. 09 Q. Where do you currently live? 10 A. I live in Dallas. 11 Q. And where in Dallas do you live? 12 A. I live at 13218 Spring Grove. 13 Q. And who lives there with you? 14 A. My wife and two of my sons and another 17 year 15 old. 16 Q. How old are your sons? 17 A. These two are 18. 18 Q. Are they twins? 19 A. They are. 20 Q. I have eight-year-old twins. 21 A. Oh. Boys or girls? 22 Q. A mix. Where did you graduate from high 23 school? 24 A. Waterford Kettering High School. 25 Q. What city was that in? 0009 01 A. It's in Drayton Plains, Michigan. 02 Q. And where did you enroll in college? 03 A. I started at Adrian College. 04 Q. And where is that located? 05 A. It's in Adrian, Michigan. 06 Q. What course of study did you pursue? 07 A. Just general studies. 08 Q. What year did you start college? 09 A. 1964. 10 Q. How long did you attend Adrian? 11 A. For one year. 12 Q. Where did you next enroll? 13 A. I moved to Michigan State University. 14 Q. What year did you enroll in Michigan State? 15 A. 1965. 16 Q. And what course of study did you pursue? 17 A. I was in education with a major in 18 mathematics. 19 Q. How long did you attend Michigan State? 20 A. For three years. 21 Q. Did you graduate from Michigan State? 22 A. I did. 23 Q. What year did you graduate? 24 A. In 1968. 25 Q. What was your degree in? 0010 01 A. My degree is in mathematics, with a minor in 02 psychology. 03 Q. Where did you go to work -- or what did you do 04 after graduation? 05 A. After I graduated, I went to work for 06 Clarenceville Public Schools. 07 Q. Clarenceville? 08 A. Uh-huh. 09 Q. And where is that located? 10 A. It's on the west side of Detroit. 11 Q. What position did you take there? 12 A. I taught 7th and 8th grade math. 13 Q. Classroom teacher? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. How long did you do that? 16 A. I taught there for three years. Then I took a 17 leave of absence to go in the Peace Corps. 18 Q. And what did you do in the Peace Corps? 19 A. Taught math. 20 Q. And where did you teach math? 21 A. In Lesotho. 22 Q. South Africa? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. How long did you teach there? 25 A. I taught there for two years. 0011 01 Q. Then what did you do? 02 A. Then I came back to Clarenceville. I was on a 03 leave of absence. 04 Q. So three years at Clarenceville, two years in 05 Lesotho? 06 A. I was in Clarenceville, and I stayed until I 07 left in November. So I substituted for them and did 08 some long-term substituting until I left. And then as 09 soon as I came back, I substituted for the remainder of 10 that year, then started back again full time the next 11 year. 12 Q. What year did you start back full time? 13 A. It would have been '73. 14 Q. And what position did you have? 15 A. I taught 7th and 8th grade math. 16 Q. Classroom teacher? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And how long did you do that? 19 A. For one more year. 20 Q. Then where did you go? 21 A. I came to Texas. 22 Q. From Michigan? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. All right. And where did you go to work? 25 A. I came to Richardson. 0012 01 Q. Independent School District? 02 A. Right. 03 Q. What possessed you to come to Texas? 04 A. Warm weather. 05 Q. Had you ever lived in Texas before? 06 A. No. My aunt lived here. 07 Q. You just wanted to get out of the cold? 08 A. Well, we were looking for some place warm 09 after Africa. After three years away from the winters, 10 it was a little harsh. 11 Q. Okay. Any of your family members other than 12 your aunt from Texas? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Okay. You just said, that's where I want to 15 go, huh? 16 A. Well, it was warm. 17 Q. All right. And you came to Texas in 1974? 18 A. 70 -- I believe that was the summer of -- 19 let's see -- yeah, '74. 20 Q. Okay. And you went to work for Richardson 21 Independent School District? 22 A. That's right. 23 Q. What position? 24 A. I was a 7th and 8th grade -- well, actually 25 7th and 9th grade teacher. 0013 01 Q. What did you teach? 02 A. Math. 03 Q. How long did you work for Richardson? 04 A. Ten years. 05 Q. What positions sequentially did you have at 06 the Richardson Independent School District? 07 A. I was at Northwood Junior High -- which was my 08 first position -- for two years. 09 Q. As a teacher? 10 A. As a teacher. Then I moved to Pearce High 11 School as a teacher, and eventually to department 12 chair. 13 Q. When did you become department chair there? 14 A. I don't really remember what year it was. 15 Q. How long were you at Pearce? 16 A. For eight years. 17 Q. And by department chair, you mean of the math 18 department? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And when you left Richardson, were you still a 21 teacher? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Then where did you go after Richardson? 24 A. I came to Plano. 25 Q. What year did you come to Plano Independent 0014 01 School District? 02 A. I believe that was '85. 03 Q. What position did you take? 04 A. The secondary mathematics coordinator. 05 Q. What were your duties and responsibilities as 06 the secondary mathematics coordinator? 07 A. My duties are to oversee the secondary 08 curriculum, which is grades 6 through 12. It is my job 09 to help teachers improve instruction. And it's also my 10 job to be looking for new curriculums that would be a 11 better way to teach than we are currently teaching. 12 Q. And who is your immediate -- are you still in 13 that position? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So you've been the secondary math coordinator 16 at the Plano Independent School District since 1985 and 17 still hold that position today? 18 A. Yes. This is my 16th year. 19 Q. 16th year, okay. At the present time, are 20 you -- I understand your duties and responsibilities 21 haven't really changed in 16 years? 22 A. No. 23 Q. But did your title change? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Are you an assistant superintendent? 0015 01 A. No. 02 Q. So you're just a coordinator? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. Okay. You haven't changed titles or anything? 05 A. No. Well, I have my doctorate, which I didn't 06 have when I started. 07 Q. All right. You went to -- you came to work in 08 Plano in 1985? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. And in 1985, you had your bachelor's? 11 A. I had my master's degree. 12 Q. You had gotten your master's by then? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And then you later got your doctorate? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. So you came to work as the secondary 17 coordinator for math. Who was your supervisor in 1985? 18 A. Dr. Holifield. 19 Q. And what is his position? 20 A. He was the assistant superintendent for 21 curriculum and instruction. 22 Q. And did he report to the superintendent? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. So you were one level below the superintendent 25 in 1985? 0016 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Okay. Who is your immediate supervisor now? 03 A. Jim Wussow. 04 Q. How do you spell his last name? 05 A. W-u-s-s-o-w. 06 Q. What is his position? 07 A. I'm not exactly sure what his title is. I 08 believe it's director of curriculum. 09 Q. And does he report to the superintendent? 10 A. No. He reports to Marilyn Brooks. 11 Q. To Marilyn Brooks? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What is her title? 14 A. She is the -- I believe it's assistant 15 superintendent for curriculum and instruction. 16 Q. So at the present time, you report to 17 Mr. Wussow and he reports to Ms. Brooks who reports to 18 the superintendent, Dr. Otto? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. How long has that been the reporting chain? 21 A. I'm really not sure how long it's been. But 22 Donna Criswell was the one before Jim Wussow. And she 23 was the first director of curriculum that we had. So 24 I'm not exactly sure when -- when that reorganization 25 took place. 0017 01 Q. In 1998, who was your immediate supervisor? 02 A. Donna Criswell. 03 Q. And she was the director of curriculum? 04 A. Right. 05 Q. And did she report to Marilyn Brooks? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. Where did you receive your master's? 08 A. University of Michigan. 09 Q. What year did you receive that? 10 A. 1971. 11 Q. That was the same place that you did your 12 bachelor's? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Michigan State? 15 A. No, they're not the same. That's like saying 16 you went to Texas when you really went to OU. 17 Q. Okay. So you got your master's at the 18 University of Michigan? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Thankfully, nobody from Michigan will be on 21 this jury. What year did you get that? 1971? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. What did you get your master's in? 24 A. My master's degree is in curriculum and 25 instruction, with an emphasis in mathematics. 0018 01 Q. What did you write your thesis on? 02 A. I didn't do one for my master's degree. 03 Q. Any particular area of study -- specialty? 04 A. Mathematics. 05 Q. Just mathematics in general? 06 A. Right. 07 Q. Was it with an emphasis on teaching or 08 emphasis on -- 09 A. Well, the degree is in curriculum and 10 instruction. 11 Q. Okay. So that is an emphasis on teaching? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Now, when did you receive your doctorate? 14 A. I knew you were going to ask that. I'm not 15 exactly sure of the date. I think it was about -- oh, 16 gosh -- probably '88, '89, somewhere around there. 17 Q. Where did you receive that from? 18 A. University of North Texas. 19 Q. What did you receive your doctorate in? 20 A. Curriculum and instruction. 21 Q. In mathematics? 22 A. It's not any particular field. It's just 23 curriculum and instruction. 24 Q. What did you write your dissertation on? 25 A. On using manipulatives for algebra one. 0019 01 Q. Okay. Have you published any books? 02 A. No. 03 Q. Have you published any articles? 04 A. No. 05 Q. Have you written any books? 06 A. No. 07 Q. Have you written any articles for publication? 08 A. No. 09 Q. When did you receive your Texas certificate as 10 a classroom teacher? 11 A. I guess it would have been '75 or '76. It was 12 at the end of the first year when we moved down here. 13 Q. What other Texas certifications do you have in 14 education? 15 A. I have a supervisor's certificate. 16 Q. And when did you receive that? 17 A. I got that along the way while I was doing my 18 doctorate, so I'm not exactly sure whether it came at 19 the same time I got the doctorate or whether I got it 20 kind of along the way. 21 Q. Sometime in 1980s? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Okay. Do you hold any other certificates? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Are you a member of any professional 0020 01 educational associations? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Would you tell me which ones. 04 A. I belong to the National Council of Teachers 05 of Mathematics. 06 Q. What does that organization do? 07 A. It is the organization of teacher educators 08 that -- they're always looking for different ways to 09 teach, better ways to teach, and keeping the members 10 informed. They sponsor an annual conference. They 11 also sponsor regional conferences. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. I belong to the National Council -- or the 14 National -- let's see -- NCS -- National Council of 15 Supervisors of Mathematics. 16 Q. And what does that organization do? 17 A. That's an organization of people like myself 18 from around the United States that supervise 19 mathematics programs in public schools and at private 20 schools and universities. 21 Q. Do they have annual meetings? 22 A. They do. 23 Q. Do you attend those? 24 A. I do. 25 Q. Do you attend the annual and regional meetings 0021 01 of the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics? 02 A. I try to do the national, but I don't usually 03 make the regional. 04 Q. Okay. 05 A. And I belong to the Texas Association of 06 Supervisors of Mathematics. 07 Q. Do they have meetings? 08 A. Three times a year. 09 Q. Do you attend those? 10 A. Just returned yesterday. 11 Q. And what does that association do? 12 A. Basically it's the local part of the national 13 organization -- again, a group of educators like myself 14 in positions like I hold here. And they disseminate 15 information. That's where we usually get our reports 16 from -- the Texas Education Agency. 17 Q. You mean that's where they're disseminated? 18 A. Right. Well, we usually have someone -- the 19 mathematics person from the agency who comes to those 20 meetings and gives us reports. 21 Q. So the Texas Education Agency has a 22 mathematics person? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Director, coordinator, supervisor, something? 25 A. I don't know exactly what her title is. 0022 01 Q. And they come and talk at the Texas 02 association meetings? 03 A. Supervisors of mathematics. 04 Q. Supervisors, right. Does the Texas Education 05 Association have state guidelines or rules or mandates 06 or those types of things on mathematics? 07 A. The agency? 08 Q. Yes. 09 A. On mathematics? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. Not many, if they have any. Occasionally they 12 will put out a guideline on what courses we are 13 supposed to be offering, what courses we give credit 14 for, those kinds of things. 15 Q. Does the Texas Education Agency require that 16 certain things be taught in public schools? 17 A. Well, I don't know whether it would be the 18 agency or whether it's the legislature. We have the 19 TEKS that we are required to teach and -- 20 Q. The what? 21 A. The Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills. 22 Q. Okay. T-E-K-S? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. It's called TEKS or TEKS? 25 A. Right. 0023 01 Q. It's sometimes pronounced -- depending whether 02 you're from West Texas or not? 03 A. That's right. 04 Q. All right. The TEKS in the area of 05 mathematics, you say that that's mandated by the state 06 legislatures? 07 A. Well, it has to be approved. I believe it's 08 approved by the legislature and the state school board. 09 Q. The state school board? 10 A. Uh-huh. I believe it goes through them as 11 well. 12 Q. Do you mean the Texas Education Agency? 13 A. No. There's also a state school board. 14 Q. Okay. So the legislature has mandated that 15 there be certain essential skills and knowledge that 16 have to be taught at each independent local school 17 district by law? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. In the area of mathematics, what are those? 20 A. A lot of them. There is -- there are TEKS for 21 every grade level, every course that we teach. 22 Q. By text, do you mean -- you mean TEKS or text? 23 A. TEKS. 24 Q. TEKS? Okay. T-E-K-S? 25 A. Yes. 0024 01 Q. We're still talking about Texas Essential 02 Skills -- 03 A. Knowledge and skills. 04 Q. Knowledge and skills, okay. So for each grade 05 level, the legislature has mandated that there be 06 certain -- I would call them, what -- minimum 07 requirements -- 08 A. That would be a good way to describe them. 09 Q. -- of things that must be taught; is that 10 right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. So the legislature has passed laws that says 13 that each local school district must follow these 14 minimum requirements at this grade level on this 15 subject matter? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Now, as long as a local school district -- and 18 let me just ask you your understanding of this 19 curriculum issue now that we're talking about it. 20 As long as a local school district complies 21 with those minimum requirements, then they're in 22 compliance with the law? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. If they don't comply with those minimum 25 requirements, the Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills 0025 01 for that grade level or for that subject matter, then 02 they're not in compliance with the law? 03 A. That's correct. 04 Q. So part of your job and responsibility is to 05 be sure that the curriculum, materials, subject matter, 06 texts that are being used, what textbooks, all comply 07 with those minimum state requirements? 08 A. Not exactly. Now, you're saying that each one 09 of those has to comply? 10 Q. No. What I'm asking is, in the area of your 11 responsibility, which is mathematics in the secondary 12 schools -- and you're the curriculum coordinator for 13 mathematics in the secondary schools, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. When you're looking at a curriculum 16 that's being implemented in the Plano Independent 17 School District, you are the person responsible for 18 being sure that that curriculum complies with the 19 minimum requirements of state law? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. And if someone believes that it doesn't 22 comply, then you're the guy that has to answer to that? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Because that's ultimately your responsibility? 25 A. Yes. 0026 01 Q. Because you're the one that makes the 02 recommendations to the superintendent, Ms. Brooks, to 03 your superiors, ultimately to the school board about 04 what should or should not be taught in the area of 05 secondary mathematics? 06 A. That's correct. 07 Q. Now, in each grade level, there are Texas 08 Essential Knowledge and Skills that the legislature has 09 mandated? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. I assume those are published? 12 A. They are. 13 Q. And they give you -- 14 A. They're on the Web. 15 Q. Okay. And they give you -- are they on the 16 TEA Web? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. So the general public knows and parents know 19 and other people know what the school district is 20 supposed to be doing? 21 A. That's right. 22 Q. Okay. And you know what the school district 23 is supposed to be doing? 24 A. I hope so. 25 Q. Well, that's your responsibility anyway? 0027 01 A. That's correct. 02 Q. Are there any other -- and when you go to 03 those association meetings of the Texas association, 04 there are people at the TEA that also are monitoring 05 the school districts to be sure that you're complying 06 with the law? Do they do that? 07 A. No, they really don't. 08 Q. They don't? 09 A. They don't have -- 10 Q. Manpower? 11 A. -- the people to be able to do that. 12 Q. Okay. Do you know how many school districts 13 there are in Texas? 14 A. 1100 the last I knew of it. 15 Q. Okay. So that would be a lot of manpower? 16 A. A lot. 17 Q. Okay. But a citizen or a parent could call to 18 the TEA's attention the fact that they don't believe 19 that their school district is complying with these 20 minimum requirements, and that might cause an 21 investigation to occur at the TEA? 22 A. Yes, I suppose they could. 23 Q. Right. I mean, have you ever had anybody from 24 the TEA contact you about math minimum requirements? 25 A. Yes. 0028 01 Q. Okay. Because you're the guy they should 02 contact? 03 A. That's right. 04 Q. So when you go to these association meetings, 05 you're getting information from TEA over how they 06 interpret the law and what they think are minimum 07 requirements; is that right? 08 A. That's not usually discussed. 09 Q. What do they tell you at these association 10 meetings? 11 A. Well, for example, yesterday they talked about 12 new initiatives that were being put forth. There is a 13 new mathematics initiative that they intend to 14 implement that I'm not exactly sure -- they weren't 15 sure on the time line of when it was going to start, 16 but it would be similar to the reading initiative they 17 started a couple of years ago. 18 That will start -- they haven't even decided 19 exactly what grade level at this point, but probably 20 around the middle school age, to work with those kids 21 that are not being successful -- she announced that. 22 They talked a little bit about AP classes and some of 23 the things that are available for students enrolled in 24 the advanced placement program. 25 She talked about the new TAAS test that would 0029 01 be coming up, and some of the things that have been 02 discussed about TAAS 2, I guess they're calling it. 03 And she also talked about the testing program in 04 general and how it's changing and the years that it 05 will be changing. 06 Q. The TAAS program? 07 A. Right. They're changing the grade level. 08 Q. Who is this person? You said "she"? 09 A. Her name is Barbara Montalto. 10 Q. How do you spell her last name? 11 A. I believe it's M-o-n-t-a-l-t-o. 12 Q. And what is her position? 13 A. She is the mathematics person for the Texas 14 Education Agency. 15 Q. Now, when the Plano Independent School 16 District decides that you want to implement a certain 17 math curriculum -- now I'm just going to be talking 18 about math because that's your area. We're not going 19 to talk about literature or English today, okay? 20 A. Good. 21 Q. When the Plano Independent School District 22 wants to initiate a new curriculum, you don't have to 23 go down to TEA and say, here's everything we want to 24 do, would you look over this and bless it and approve 25 it for us; is that right? 0030 01 A. No, we don't. 02 Q. So you are free to adopt programs, 03 curriculums; you're free to adopt literature, materials 04 for your school district so long as it complies with 05 the minimum requirements? That's the bottom line? 06 A. Well, when you say -- it's our total 07 curriculum that has to comply -- 08 Q. Right. 09 A. -- not individual parts. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. So your total math curriculum, for instance, 13 at grade 6, grade 7, grade 8, must comply with the 14 Essential Skills and Knowledge -- or what I call the 15 minimum requirements that are stated by the 16 legislature? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. But you don't have to go down and get 19 preapproval on that before you implement it? 20 A. No. 21 Q. And the only way that the Texas Education 22 Agency is probably going to know what you're doing is 23 if somebody complains? 24 A. Well, no. They'll have a pretty good idea 25 from our TAAS scores, whether we're teaching the -- 0031 01 Q. Well, that will be years later? 02 A. No, they'll know right away because they take 03 those -- in mathematics, they take the TAAS test every 04 year. 05 Q. But if you've implemented a new program, it 06 may take a couple of years for those scores to show up? 07 A. It could. 08 Q. Especially in mathematics when it's a new 09 program? 10 A. It might, but it could show up right away. 11 Q. Now, have you ever had the TEA come in and 12 conduct an audit for inspection of the math curriculum 13 for secondary schools since you've been at Plano 14 Independent School District? 15 A. An audit? 16 Q. Or inspection, right. 17 A. Not an inspection, no. 18 Q. Did they ever come in just unannounced or tell 19 you they're coming up and they want to look at what 20 you're doing? 21 A. Not that I know of. 22 Q. Do you know if they have the authority to do 23 that without a complaint being filed? 24 A. No, I really don't. 25 Q. Don't know that? 0032 01 A. (Moving head side to side.) 02 Q. Okay. It's never happened -- you're not 03 aware of it happening since you've been at Plano? 04 A. It wouldn't bother us if they did. We'd be 05 happy to have them. 06 Q. Okay. Now, you said that you have been 07 involved with the Texas Education Agency in some kind 08 of a challenge or complaint about your curriculum for 09 secondary schools; is that right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, tell me about that, would you? 12 A. It was a question that was raised about our 13 middle school curriculum. 14 Q. In math? 15 A. In math. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. So I went to Austin and took them all of the 18 documentation that we had, to show that what we were 19 doing did cover the TEKS. 20 Q. Who contacted you at TEA about this question? 21 A. Bill Hopkins. 22 Q. Did you know Bill? 23 A. Yes. He was director of mathematics at TEA at 24 the time. He is no longer there, but he was at the 25 time. 0033 01 Q. And when did this occur? When did the 02 question come up? 03 A. I don't really remember. I'm not sure of the 04 exact date. 05 Q. Was it in connection with the connected math 06 program? 07 A. Yes, it was. 08 Q. And was it in connection with parents at the 09 middle schools who opposed the connected math program? 10 A. To my knowledge, that's who lodged the 11 complaint. 12 Q. To your knowledge, it was Mr. Kirke and the 13 Plaintiffs in this case -- 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. -- that lodged the complaint with TEA; is that 16 right? 17 A. That's my understanding. 18 Q. And then how were you contacted by Mr. Hopkins 19 concerning the parents' complaint? 20 A. He called me and told me that the complaint 21 had been lodged and that could he meet with me and look 22 at the documents that we had? 23 Q. On your math curriculum? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. And what did he tell you the complaint was? 0034 01 A. That we were not covering the Texas Essential 02 Knowledge and Skills. 03 Q. Do you know what would happen if Mr. Hopkins 04 or the TEA had determined that you were not doing that? 05 A. No. 06 Q. But when he called, you understood that it was 07 his responsibility to ensure that you were complying 08 with the law? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Where did you meet with Mr. Hopkins? 11 A. In Austin. 12 Q. How long did the meeting last? 13 A. Gosh, I don't really remember. It wasn't -- 14 Q. More than an hour? 15 A. No, I don't think so. 16 Q. What information did you take to Mr. Hopkins? 17 A. I took him the documents that we had produced 18 when we had aligned the Texas Knowledge and Skills with 19 the materials that we were using. 20 Q. What specific documents did you take down 21 there to show Mr. Hopkins? 22 A. We had produced a -- we had a sheet -- we had 23 done this long before this came up. We wanted to be 24 sure that we were covering everything. So we just have 25 a sheet with all the essential knowledge and skills 0035 01 listed on one side and where we cover them in the 02 curriculum on the other side. 03 Q. One sheet of paper? 04 A. No, it's several. 05 Q. I mean, are we talking about 2 or 300 pages or 06 10 pages? 07 A. No, it's not that long. Probably -- oh, it's 08 probably four or five pages per grade level. 09 Q. Okay. And so for grade 6, for instance, you 10 would have a sheet that did a comparison, you know, one 11 side would be what the law requires, minimum 12 guidelines, and the other side, it would be your 13 description of what you were covering in the curriculum 14 that related to that? 15 A. What we have are the TEKS on the left side and 16 where we cover that in the curriculum on the right 17 side. 18 Q. Did you take anything else to Mr. Hopkins? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did you take him any of the textbooks you were 21 using? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did you give him a list of the textbooks that 24 you were using? 25 A. They are listed on that sheet. 0036 01 Q. Now, in addition to textbooks, had you 02 developed materials that the teachers could use in the 03 classroom? 04 A. Well, I wouldn't exactly say -- we developed 05 some. Some of them we just used, we took from other 06 places. 07 Q. What other places did you take? 08 A. You can purchase work sheets and things from 09 different companies, and we used those. We incorporate 10 those. Some the teachers develop themselves. 11 Q. Did you take Mr. Hopkins any of the work 12 sheets? 13 A. No. We just cited those, where they are. 14 Q. Now, in addition to the textbooks and the work 15 sheets, were there any other materials that you were 16 using in the classroom to teach the students? 17 A. We also have a computer program called 18 Rediscover Math. 19 Q. And that's the name of the program? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Is that -- I guess it's a software program on 22 a computer? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. And that computer program's software is 25 available to the students? 0037 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Okay. 03 A. Well, it's not -- when you say available to 04 the students, they can't take it home, but it's on the 05 computers in the classroom. 06 Q. Okay. Did you take that down to Mr. Hopkins? 07 A. No. 08 Q. Where did you purchase that program? 09 A. I believe the company is called Edunetics, 10 which has since been purchased by another company, so 11 I'm not exactly sure who owns it at the moment, but... 12 Q. So it was a software program. And did it deal 13 with connected math? 14 A. It deals with middle school math. 15 Q. Was connected math part of the Rediscover Math 16 software? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Okay. What else do you use -- or did you use 19 in this time frame in your middle school math 20 curriculum besides the textbooks and material and the 21 software? 22 A. That's basically it. 23 Q. Okay. But you didn't actually take down to 24 the TEA or Mr. Hopkins any of the literal information, 25 just the summary? 0038 01 A. I took the information. I didn't take any of 02 the actual books or work sheets, no. 03 Q. The only thing you took down to him was just 04 your four-sheet comparison -- 05 A. Right. 06 Q. Okay. 07 A. Where we had shown all the essential knowledge 08 and skills. 09 Q. Did you take down to Mr. Hopkins anything 10 dealing with what you were teaching on connected 11 math: the textbook, the written materials, any 12 software programs on connected math? 13 A. I don't understand what you mean "take." The 14 materials that we're teaching connected -- we're 15 teaching the mathematics curriculum. 16 Q. One of the -- 17 A. We're teaching connected math. 18 Q. One of the complaints by the parents was that 19 the connected math program did not comply with TEKS. 20 That was a complaint. 21 A. I know that, yes. 22 Q. Yes. You know that well, don't you? 23 A. Very well. 24 Q. All right. You also know very well that 25 Mr. Hopkins had received a complaint from the parents 0039 01 that the connected math program didn't comply with 02 TEKS. You know that? 03 A. I do. 04 Q. Okay. So did you take down to Mr. Hopkins any 05 materials on connected math? 06 A. All we took down was the sheet that we had 07 developed. 08 Q. That's it? 09 A. Right. 10 Q. You also know that one of the complaints of 11 the parents was that they wanted an option to have 12 traditional arithmetic, traditional math being taught 13 as opposed to connected math? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. And I think at the time that you went 16 down to see Mr. Hopkins, you had only piloted the 17 connected math program in four schools? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. So it had not been implemented system-wide? 20 A. Right. 21 Q. Although that was certainly an intent -- 22 certainly what you would hope to see happen eventually? 23 A. No. I wanted them to try it and see whether 24 they thought it was a better idea or not. And once we 25 had tried it, if that's what the teachers thought was a 0040 01 better approach, then we would move in that direction. 02 Q. Now, in the area -- and you understand that 03 the complaints of the parents only related to the math 04 curriculum at the four schools that you were piloting 05 connected math; is that right? 06 A. I'm not exactly sure what their complaint was, 07 that it was their -- to my understanding, it was that 08 the connected math program did not cover the TEKS. 09 Q. Okay. And that program was only being 10 implemented at that time by the school district in 11 those four schools? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. And they're four middle schools? 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. Now, with respect specifically with the 16 connected math program, did you take any materials to 17 Mr. Hopkins on connected math? 18 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, asked and 19 answered. 20 A. I think I already answered that. I told you I 21 took the document where we had compared the TEKS to 22 what we were doing to cover those TEKS. 23 Q. Now, your document that you took down there 24 covered the entire curriculum for those grade levels, 25 didn't it? 0041 01 A. Sure. 02 Q. Okay. So my question is, did you take 03 anything down there that covered just the curriculum 04 being taught in the four pilot schools? 05 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, asked and 06 answered. 07 A. That's -- 08 Q. And not the other middle schools? 09 A. I was not aware that there was a complaint 10 about the curriculum in the other middle schools. 11 Q. All right. So you took information down there 12 about the four pilot schools where the connected math 13 program was going on? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. And you didn't take any of the materials that 16 you had purchased or developed internally on connected 17 math and showed those to the TEA, did you? 18 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, asked and 19 answered. 20 A. As I already answered, I said the document I 21 took was the one that had the TEKS on the left side and 22 what we were doing to cover those TEKS on the right 23 side. 24 Q. And that doesn't include the actual literature 25 used in the classroom or the textbook? 0042 01 A. It's just a sheet. 02 Q. Okay. Who else was at the meeting other than 03 Mr. Hopkins? 04 A. No one. 05 Q. And you met with him just one day? 06 A. That's correct. 07 Q. For about one hour? 08 A. Uh-huh, yes. 09 Q. And did you have any follow-up meetings with 10 Mr. Hopkins? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Is that the only time you've met with 13 Mr. Hopkins or anybody from the TEA on the issue of 14 connected math in the middle schools? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What other associations -- professional 17 associations are you a member of? 18 A. The Association for Supervision and Curriculum 19 Development. 20 Q. What does that association do? 21 A. It's a group of people like myself, except it 22 includes all the subject areas, not just mathematics. 23 Q. Okay. Any other professional associations? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Now, when did you first become acquainted with 0043 01 this program called connected math? 02 A. I don't know the exact date. It was about a 03 year before we started the pilot. 04 Q. How did you become familiar with connected 05 math? 06 A. The developers of the program had an 07 informational weekend where they invited people in my 08 position to come and look at the materials. 09 Q. Who were the developers of the program? 10 A. They are professors at Michigan State -- 11 Glenda Lappin, Betty Phillips. Let's see who else. I 12 don't know all the names. I'm not sure -- Bill 13 Fitzpatrick. 14 Q. I'm sorry? Bill? 15 A. Bill Fitzpatrick. And I believe there are a 16 couple of other authors on there as well. 17 Q. But these are all professors at Michigan 18 State? 19 A. No. One of them is from the University of 20 Maryland. He is -- that's Jim Fey. Jim Fey is also 21 one of the authors. 22 Q. Jeff or Jim? 23 A. Jim. 24 Q. Jim. 25 A. Fey. 0044 01 Q. What's his last name? 02 A. F-e-y, and Susan Friel. 03 Q. Now, did -- 04 A. And Susan, I believe, is from -- she's from a 05 university in North Carolina, but I'm not sure which. 06 Q. Did Michigan State sponsor this program? 07 A. No. It was sponsored by the National Science 08 Foundation. 09 Q. Were most of the developers from Michigan 10 State? 11 A. Glenda and Betty and Bill are from Michigan 12 State. 13 Q. Was the first name Glenda or Linda? 14 A. Glenda. 15 Q. Glenda, sorry. And you got a degree from 16 Michigan State, didn't you? 17 A. I did. 18 Q. Is that your master's or your bachelor's? 19 A. My bachelor's degree. 20 Q. Bachelor's degree. Did you know any of those 21 professors? 22 A. Actually, Dr. Lappin was my methods professor 23 when I was at Michigan State. 24 Q. Dr. Glenda Lappin? 25 A. Uh-huh. 0045 01 Q. So you knew her? 02 A. Right. 03 Q. How did you become aware that -- 04 A. She's also the president of the national 05 council. She just finished her term as president of 06 National Council of Teachers of Mathematics. 07 Q. And how did you become aware of the meeting -- 08 this weekend meeting? 09 A. I got a mailing. 10 Q. And did that mailing come from the National 11 Science Foundation or from the university? 12 A. It came from the university. 13 Q. Was the meeting at the university? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And did you make the decision to go up 16 there -- did you go up there? 17 A. I did. 18 Q. Did you make the decision go up there on your 19 own, or did you get approval on that? 20 A. I got approval. 21 Q. Okay. And who did you get approval from? 22 A. Donna Criswell. 23 Q. How many times previous to this had you gone 24 out of state in search of some new math program? 25 A. This is -- they don't usually have -- have 0046 01 these things. Usually I get them in the mail, and I 02 have to contact them and ask for sample textbooks or 03 whatever, which I do quite often. 04 Q. So this is the first time you actually took a 05 weekend trip like this out of state to go check out a 06 new program; is that right? Had you ever done that 07 before? 08 A. Well, actually I've been to -- yes, I have 09 gone to -- what was that again? I can't remember 10 whether it was Rhode Island or -- I guess we were in 11 Rhode Island. There is an organization sponsored by 12 the National Science Foundation that disseminates 13 information on several programs, middle school, 14 elementary, and high school. I also went there to look 15 at those programs. 16 Q. So how long were you up there? Was it just 17 the weekend? 18 A. A weekend, uh-huh. 19 Q. A Saturday and Sunday or -- 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. Okay. Did they have materials there for you? 22 A. They did. 23 Q. Did they go over the program? 24 A. They did. 25 Q. And then what did you do when you got back to 0047 01 Plano? 02 A. They allowed me to bring back samples of the 03 program with me, and I took those out to the middle 04 schools for the teachers to look at. 05 Q. And then where did you take it from there? 06 A. I took the materials around to each middle 07 school and left them for a period of time so that they 08 could have some time at their leisure to look at them 09 and see what they thought. 10 And then once everyone had had the opportunity 11 to look at it, I said I would like to try the program 12 if anyone thought it looked worth trying. 13 Q. What you call a pilot? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. And the four schools that did the pilot said 17 they would like to try it. 18 Q. And I suppose at some point you brought 19 Marilyn Brooks in on this and Donna Criswell? 20 A. Donna went with me up to Michigan State. 21 Q. Oh, she did? 22 A. She did. 23 Q. Okay. And so then at some point after you 24 talked to the teachers, you talked to Marilyn Brooks 25 about this in order to get the pilot approved? 0048 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. And who was it that had the authority to 03 approve the pilot program? 04 A. I don't believe we really have a policy for 05 approving pilots, at least not to my knowledge. 06 Q. When you went up to Michigan, did they provide 07 you with any information about other school districts 08 that had implemented connected math? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did they provide you with any information 11 indicating that it had not worked in any other public 12 school districts? 13 A. No. 14 Q. So the information they provided to you had 15 indicated that it worked? 16 A. True. 17 Q. All positive information? 18 A. Sure. 19 Q. Okay. Because they're trying to sell the 20 program, right? 21 A. Well, they didn't really have to sell it. 22 They -- they are not there to make money on this 23 program. The -- being developed by the National 24 Science Foundation, in fact, any money that Michigan 25 State got from this program -- that the authors got, 0049 01 went into a trust fund at the university. 02 Q. Michigan State? 03 A. Uh-huh. 04 MR. BUNDREN: Now, we've been going for 05 about an hour and fifteen minutes. Let's take a short 06 break. 07 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. 08 (Recess from 10:07 to 10:30 a.m.) 09 Q. Doctor, before the break, we were talking 10 about the connected math program and your trip up to 11 Michigan State. 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. And the National Science Foundation and the 14 pilot program -- to kind of bring us back to where we 15 were -- I want to pick up there with a couple more 16 questions. 17 You also told me about the TEKS, Texas 18 Essential Knowledge and Skills that's mandated by the 19 state legislature. Who was responsible in the area of 20 math -- and again, all my questions relate to math now. 21 I don't want get off into English and so forth -- but 22 who in the area of math was responsible for writing the 23 state guidelines on TEKS? 24 A. The state guidelines or the TEKS themselves? 25 Q. The TEKS themselves. 0050 01 A. There was a large committee that was called 02 together of educators from around the state, and 03 they -- K-12 mathematics people, some supervisors, some 04 teachers, some university people. 05 Q. Was this organized by the TEA? 06 A. Well, actually it was subcontracted to the 07 Statewide Systemic Initiative. 08 Q. The what? 09 A. Statewide Systemic Initiative. 10 Q. Is that TSSI? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. Texas Statewide -- right. 14 Q. Texas -- 15 A. They have them in other states also. 16 Q. I'm sorry. That was a new term. I didn't 17 understand. Texas Statewide -- 18 A. Systemic Initiative. 19 Q. Systemic? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. Initiative? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And that's a new name. Who are they? 24 A. It's a group that's -- I believe it's 25 federally funded. And they -- they were set up in 0051 01 several states to help initiate change in mathematics 02 and science curriculum to improve the curriculum. 03 Q. And so there was a Texas Statewide Systemic 04 Initiative -- 05 A. Right. 06 Q. -- abbreviated TSSI? 07 A. And they are the group that actually organized 08 and did the oversight of the writing of the TEKS and 09 the -- with TEA people there as well. 10 Q. So TEA is an agency of the state of Texas. I 11 understand that. 12 A. Right. 13 Q. TSSI, do they have employees? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do they have an office? 16 A. They do. 17 Q. Is it in Austin? 18 A. Yes. It is affiliated with the Dana Center at 19 the University of Texas. 20 Q. Is there an executive director of TSSI -- 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. -- or somebody who manages it? 23 A. It's changed a couple of times, so I'm not 24 really sure who it is at the moment. 25 Q. They're not -- are they -- I'm just asking 0052 01 your understanding. If you don't know, just tell me 02 you don't know, but are they an agency of the state? 03 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 04 Q. So they're a federally-funded group set up in 05 some states, Texas being one of them, to effectuate 06 change in math and science? 07 A. Yes. And I'm not sure exactly how the funding 08 works. I'm not sure. 09 Q. I'm just asking your understanding. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. But your understanding is that the money to 12 run TSSI comes from federal funds? 13 A. Some. I think they get it from several -- 14 several places. 15 Q. And so when the TEKS were developed, they were 16 developed by TSSI? 17 A. They were the ones who -- they did not develop 18 them. They were the ones who oversaw the project. 19 Q. And so did they -- did TSSI -- 20 A. And they only did math and science. 21 Q. All right. I understand. 22 A. I don't know who did the others. 23 Q. Did TSSI appoint people to the TEKS review 24 committee? 25 A. I don't really know how the process worked. 0053 01 Q. Okay. 02 A. Whether they were the ones who did it or 03 whether TEA was the one who did it. 04 Q. But you said there was a large committee of 05 educators around the state who served on this 06 committee? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Did you ever serve on the committee? 09 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. Did you go to meetings? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. In Austin? 13 A. Some were in Austin; some were in Houston. 14 Q. Okay. Approximately how many people were on 15 the committee that developed the TEKS for math? 16 A. Oh, gosh. I really don't know. They were 17 divided up into different groups. The elementary 18 people worked together, and there was a middle school 19 group. There was an algebra group and a geometry 20 group. So they kind of split up and did different 21 things. 22 Q. What group did you work on? 23 A. I was with the middle school. 24 Q. Okay. And how many people were on that middle 25 school committee? 0054 01 A. It varied. 02 Q. Who appointed you or how did you come to get 03 on that committee? 04 A. Gosh, I don't remember. I think -- I really 05 don't remember. I think they -- I think they sent out 06 applications and you could apply to work on the 07 committee. 08 Q. Who sent out the applications? 09 A. I don't remember whether it was TEA or the 10 SSI. 11 Q. Are you still serving on that committee? 12 A. No. It's finished. 13 Q. So the committee has been disbanded? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. When did you start serving on the committee? 16 A. I don't remember the date, but it would have 17 been the year that they decided to redo those -- to 18 switch from the essential elements to the -- to the 19 TEKS. 20 So it's probably been -- we've been using the 21 TEKS now for a couple of years -- two or three years. 22 So it would have been, gosh, at least two or three 23 years before that. It took us a while -- 24 Q. That you served on the committee? 25 A. It took us a while to get them done. 0055 01 Q. And when you say, to get them done, 02 you're referring back to the T-E-K-S, the TEKS -- 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. -- to get them done? Over what period of time 05 did the committee meet to get the TEKS done? 06 A. It probably took us -- we probably -- probably 07 over a year's time. 08 Q. And did each committee ultimately develop some 09 TEKS that were approved by someone? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And were they submitted to somebody for 12 approval? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Who were they submitted to? 15 A. I believe they went to the state school board. 16 Q. For approval? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. And then those TEKS then become the 19 minimum guidelines for all school districts? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you receive any kind of reimbursement from 22 anybody for your participation in the committee? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Was your travel reimbursed by anyone other 25 than the school district? 0056 01 A. Yes -- no -- the state paid for it -- or the 02 SSI. 03 Q. TSSI paid for your travel? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. So if you flew down to Houston or you flew 06 down to Austin, they'd reimburse you? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. And that came from TSSI? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Who was chairman of your committee? 11 A. I don't believe we had a chairman in our 12 group. We just kind of all worked together. 13 Q. Now, these committee meetings were going on 14 during the same period of time that the Plano 15 Independent School District had your pilot program in 16 the middle schools for CMP; is that right? 17 A. I don't know exactly how they lined up. I 18 think -- it seems to me we were finished with that work 19 before we started the pilot, but I'm not sure. 20 Q. Okay. Was there a discussion in the committee 21 meetings on the TEKS about connected math? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Were there any materials on connected math 24 that were reviewed in those committee meetings? 25 A. We didn't look at materials. We were looking 0057 01 at objectives that we felt needed to be covered at each 02 grade level. 03 Q. Do you still have a file on all the committee 04 meetings? 05 A. No. 06 Q. Was there a file that you had at one point? 07 A. Not much of a file. I had notebooks and 08 things. 09 Q. Okay. What was in those notebooks on that 10 committee meeting? 11 A. Just the things that -- we had the national 12 standards. We had the new standards, materials from 13 the new standards project. That was also being worked 14 on at that time. We had -- they would give us -- 15 periodically gave us articles about curriculum and -- 16 Q. Who? TSI? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. TSSI? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. And then we had all of our draft things in 22 there. We went through several -- several drafts. 23 Q. So if someone would propose something, it 24 would be looked at and it would be drafted and it would 25 be circulated to the committee members? 0058 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. And then you'd get together and discuss it? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. Redraft it? 05 A. It was also -- we also had a draft that we 06 sent out to all school districts and asked for comments 07 back from all the school districts. And we had all of 08 those comment sheets that we went through for every one 09 and considered all the comments that were made. 10 Q. Okay. What did the TEKS replace? Was there 11 something in place before the TEKS? 12 A. Essential elements. 13 Q. And the essential elements were also mandated 14 by the state legislature? 15 A. Yes. It's basically the same thing as the 16 TEKS. 17 Q. And then there was this effort by this 18 committee with TSSI to get into the TEKS, which is 19 Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. That's different than the essential elements? 22 A. Same idea, just -- they were organized a 23 little differently, but the same idea. 24 Q. Did you participate in the development of the 25 essential elements? 0059 01 A. Yes, I did. 02 Q. So you were on that committee too? 03 A. I've been around for a long time. 04 Q. And did that committee -- who sponsored that 05 committee? 06 A. That one was TEA. 07 Q. TEA? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Okay. And do you recall about what year it 10 was that you worked on the TEA committee to develop 11 essential elements in math? 12 A. No, I don't. 13 Q. Okay. How long had the essential elements 14 been around before the TEKS came in? 15 A. Well, we had gone through -- they were 16 originally developed, and then there was a revision. 17 So they were probably -- probably around ten years 18 maybe. It's been around for a while. 19 Q. And when were the TEKS actually approved? 20 A. I don't remember the date. 21 Q. Do you remember the year or approximate year? 22 A. A couple of years ago. It's been -- they gave 23 us a year to kind of move from the essential elements 24 to the TEKS. And then we had to be with the TEKS 25 totally. And our TAAS test was still kind of in a 0060 01 transition period, so it hasn't been a real clean 02 move -- we stopped here one year and started here the 03 next year. 04 Q. So at some point the -- and I'm only concerned 05 about your committee in the middle school math. I'm 06 not concerned about senior algebra or calculus or 07 anything. 08 A. Okay. 09 Q. So at some point, the TEKS for middle school 10 math were developed and approved by the TSSI committee 11 that you served on, and were distributed to the school 12 districts with the instruction of, this is what the new 13 minimum guidelines are going to be? 14 A. Not exactly, in that we did not distribute 15 those. Those had to go to the state school board 16 first -- 17 Q. And then they approved -- 18 A. -- for approval -- 19 Q. -- them and distributed those? 20 A. -- and then the Texas Education Agency 21 distributes those. 22 Q. Okay. And so then it came back to you from 23 the TEA and you said, hmm, this looks familiar? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Right, because you served on the committee? 0061 01 A. Right. 02 Q. Okay. And do you know about when those TEKS 03 went out for -- were finally adopted -- the year they 04 were finally adopted or the year that you started 05 looking at them for purposes of implementation in the 06 District? 07 A. No. I think it's been about -- I think it's 08 been about three years that we'd been working on them. 09 Q. Okay. Now, at any point during this process 10 of the TEKS and the essential element and the CMP 11 program that you were adopting and so forth, did the 12 TEA ever do a textbook review on the proposed connected 13 math textbook? 14 A. Texas Education Agency does a textbook review 15 for all the textbooks that are up for adoption. 16 Q. Did they do a textbook review for purposes of 17 any text that you were using for math in the middle 18 schools in the Plano Independent School District 19 concerning connected math? 20 A. They did a textbook review of all the 21 textbooks that were up, and connected math was one of 22 them that was up for review. 23 Q. So the answer is, yes, they did? 24 A. They did a review of that book. 25 Q. And in that review of that book, do you recall 0062 01 what the conclusion was? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. What was the conclusion? 04 A. They concluded that the TEKS were not at the 05 grade level where they were specified, that there was 06 some missing at the grade levels. 07 Q. The textbooks? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Were those textbooks that you were using at 10 that time in the District? 11 A. I'm not sure what you're asking me. 12 Q. The textbooks that the TEA reviewed and found 13 did not meet the requirements, the minimum state 14 requirements, were you using those in the school 15 district at that time? 16 A. We were doing the pilot, yes. 17 Q. That's what I'm asking. 18 A. We were using them at the four -- the four 19 pilot schools. 20 Q. So would I be correct, then, that the 21 textbooks that the school district was using at the 22 four pilot programs to teach connected math, when 23 reviewed by the state agency responsible for textbook 24 review, that agency concluded those textbooks did not 25 comply with the minimum requirements? 0063 01 A. Well, at that time, the -- we were not using 02 the TEKS at that time. And we had not adopted that 03 particular textbook. It was just a pilot textbook, 04 so... 05 Q. Well, it was a pilot textbook, though? 06 A. Right. 07 Q. And you were using it for that purpose, 08 weren't you? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. And there were middle school students at four 11 of your middle schools that were using that textbook? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And although it hadn't been officially adopted 14 by the school board, it was in use? 15 A. We were using it. 16 Q. And it talked about connected math; is that 17 right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And the report that came out from the Texas 20 Education Agency said it didn't meet the minimum 21 requirements? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Did you know that? 24 A. Sure, but that's not our curriculum. 25 Q. It was your curriculum for the pilot, wasn't 0064 01 it? 02 A. It's only a part of the curriculum. 03 Q. Well, you -- 04 A. The textbook is not the entire curriculum. 05 Q. But you knew that that textbook that you were 06 using for the curriculum on connected math for your 07 pilot program did not meet the state minimum 08 requirements, didn't you? 09 A. It doesn't have to. 10 Q. I said, did you know that it didn't meet the 11 state minimum requirements? 12 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, asked and 13 answered. 14 A. I said it doesn't have to. 15 Q. I didn't ask you -- 16 A. You have to cover the Texas Essential 17 Knowledge and Skills in your classroom during the year 18 that it says you're supposed to cover them. And you 19 are allowed to cover them however you wish and use 20 whatever materials you wish, as long as you cover them. 21 So that's one of the materials that we used. It 22 doesn't have to have all of the TEKS in it. 23 Q. I'm not going to argue with you about what's 24 required or not required. My only question was, did 25 you know that that particular textbook that you were 0065 01 using in the pilot programs at the four middle schools 02 on connected math had been reviewed by the agency 03 responsible for review at the state level, and that 04 they had concluded it did not comply with the minimum 05 requirements? 06 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, asked and 07 answered. 08 A. Yes, I believe I answered you and told you 09 that that was only a part of the curriculum that we 10 were doing and, yes, we were covering all the Texas 11 Essential Knowledge and Skills. 12 Q. That wasn't my question. Listen to my 13 question. 14 A. I'm listening. 15 Q. I'm only asking about your knowledge. I'm not 16 asking for you to tell me about your whole curriculum. 17 I'm asking about the textbook. 18 A. But the textbook doesn't really -- 19 Q. I didn't ask that question. 20 A. It doesn't matter. It's the curriculum that 21 you teach that matters. 22 Q. I'm asking about your knowledge of a review by 23 the Texas Education Agency of a textbook. That's all 24 I'm asking. 25 A. Sure. 0066 01 Q. Did you know that the textbook that you were 02 using for the pilot program at the middle schools on 03 connected math had been reviewed by the Texas Education 04 Agency, and that the agency's committee had concluded 05 that that textbook did not meet the essential skills 06 and the minimum requirements? 07 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, asked and 08 answered. 09 A. And that's why we supplemented with other 10 materials. 11 Q. I only asked yes or no? Did you or did you 12 not know that? 13 A. Yes, and that's why we -- 14 Q. Fine. 15 A. -- supplemented -- 16 Q. All you've got to do is answer my question. 17 Yes, I knew that. 18 A. I tried. 19 Q. If you'll just listen to the question and 20 answer my question, we won't have to repeat it. 21 A. Good. I'm listening. 22 Q. When did you learn that the textbook on 23 connected math that you were using in the pilot 24 programs had been reviewed by the state agency and did 25 not meet the minimum requirements? 0067 01 A. Whenever the state sent out that report. And 02 I don't know what date that was. 03 Q. Was it a published report? 04 A. Sure. 05 Q. Did you have a copy of it? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. And so you knew the specifics of the report 08 that the agency had said did not meet the minimum 09 requirements? 10 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 11 Misstates the evidence. 12 Q. How long was the report? 13 A. It's -- I don't know -- several pages long. 14 There's one for each grade level. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Maybe 20 pages. I don't really know. 17 Q. Did you serve on the committee that reviewed 18 that textbook for the TEA? 19 A. No, I did not. 20 Q. Are there committees that review textbooks for 21 TEA? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And if it deals with the area of math, do you 24 generally get those textbook reviews from the TEA? 25 A. No, not usually. 0068 01 Q. Can you ask the TEA for any of their reviews 02 if you choose to? 03 A. Yes, I can. 04 Q. And how did you come to get a copy of the 05 Texas Education Agency's review of your connected math 06 textbook? 07 A. I don't remember. I don't remember how I got 08 it. 09 Q. Did someone bring it to your attention? 10 A. I'm thinking Susan Sarhady gave it to me, but 11 I'm not really sure. 12 Q. Now, your pilot program, as I understand it 13 from Ms. Brooks, went over a period of about three 14 years; is that right? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. And for how many years had you been using this 17 connected math textbook that I'm asking you about in 18 your pilot program? Had you been using it for all 19 three years? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. Did you continue to use that textbook 22 after you knew that the textbook had been reviewed by 23 the Texas Education Agency and had not -- and under 24 their review had not met the minimum requirements? 25 A. Well, as I said before, sure, that was not 0069 01 part of our -- that's only a small part of the 02 curriculum, so it didn't matter. 03 Q. My question is, did you or did you not 04 continue to use it? 05 A. Sure. 06 Q. Did you inform anybody in the administration 07 that the textbook that was being used for connected 08 math in the pilot program had been reviewed by the 09 Texas Education Agency, and it had found that it did 10 not meet minimum requirements for the state? 11 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 12 Misstates the evidence. 13 A. See, I believe what you're saying when it 14 "does not meet minimum requirement," I -- can you 15 clarify that for me? 16 Q. Whatever the requirements were. We talked 17 about that earlier. You had either the Texas Essential 18 Skills or you had the TEKS or the essential skills. 19 But they reviewed it for, I guess, some standard? 20 A. What the state agency does is they review 21 those textbooks and they put them on a conforming or a 22 nonconforming list. And the state allows you to adopt 23 books from the conforming or nonconforming list, and 24 they fund those textbooks fully. 25 Q. And my question was, you knew it was on the 0070 01 nonconforming list? 02 A. At that point, no list had come out, but 03 they -- we knew it was going to be on the nonconforming 04 list. 05 Q. And did you tell anybody in the administration 06 that the textbook that you were using in this pilot 07 program was on the nonconforming list -- or would be on 08 the nonconforming list? 09 A. I probably did, but I'm not sure. 10 Q. When went to the -- 11 A. I'm sure that I discussed it with Ms. Brooks. 12 Q. When you went to the parents nights and all 13 these math nights that you had at all these schools, 14 did you take that report from the state agency and 15 distribute it to the parents? 16 A. Why would I do that? 17 Q. That's a good question. Why would you tell 18 them that, right? 19 A. We discussed it at every meeting, and it did 20 come up at every meeting. And we discussed with the 21 parents that we had looked very closely at the 22 essential knowledge and skills and made sure that our 23 curriculum was covering all of those essential 24 knowledge and skills. 25 Q. At some of these math nights, you had that 0071 01 textbook our there on the table, didn't you? 02 A. Sure. 03 Q. And did you have any literature next to the 04 textbook to be distributed to the parents that night 05 that told them that the Texas Education Agency had 06 reviewed this textbook and that it was nonconforming, 07 that it did not meet the minimum requirements? 08 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 09 Misstates the evidence. 10 Q. Did you tell them that? 11 MR. CRAWFORD: Same objection. 12 A. I believe you already asked me if we had 13 material out there, and I told you that we discussed it 14 at every meeting, that it was out there. 15 Q. That wasn't my question. 16 A. And, no, there was written materials. 17 Q. So you didn't take the Texas agency's report 18 to any of the parent meetings and you didn't distribute 19 it to the parents? 20 A. That would have been a tremendous expense 21 because the report is rather lengthy. 22 Q. My only question is, did you or didn't you? 23 A. I didn't see any reason to do that as long as 24 I informed them and they knew that it was on that 25 nonconform list. 0072 01 Q. Did you put any kind of a -- it wouldn't have 02 been expensive for you to put a label on that book that 03 said, this book will not conform to Texas minimum 04 requirements? That wouldn't have been expensive, would 05 it? 06 A. I didn't see any reason to do that -- 07 Q. That wasn't my question. 08 A. -- as long as we talked about it. 09 Q. Would that have been expensive? 10 A. I don't imagine it would. 11 Q. Okay. But you didn't do that either, did you? 12 A. I didn't see any reason to do that. 13 Q. You laid the textbook out there for all the 14 parents to look at, but you didn't tell them that that 15 very textbook had not been approved on the conforming 16 list of the state, did you? 17 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, misstates his 18 prior testimony. 19 Q. Isn't that true? 20 MR. CRAWFORD: Same objection. 21 Q. You need to answer the question. 22 A. I said that what we did is we discussed it at 23 every meeting. It came up at every meeting. And, yes, 24 we did let them know that it was on the nonconforming 25 list. And we also let them know that we had checked 0073 01 the essential knowledge and skills and made sure that 02 we were covering all of them in the curriculum. 03 Q. That's what you were telling the parents at 04 all these meetings? 05 A. Sure. 06 Q. The connected math program that you piloted 07 here in Plano had been used in other school districts 08 across the country prior to the time that you piloted 09 it here in Plano; isn't that true? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you contact your counterparts in other 12 school districts to determine how the program had 13 worked in their districts prior to the time that you 14 recommended piloting that program here? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. Did you contact anybody from Palo Alto? 17 A. Not before. I contacted them after. 18 Q. Is it true that you became aware at some point 19 that in Palo Alto there was a big controversy about 20 connected math? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. How did you become aware of that? 23 A. I believe that at one of the parents nights, 24 the parents had asked about it. And it was also on the 25 Mathematically Correct Web site, which I had -- which I 0074 01 did notice. 02 Q. And what did you learn about the controversy 03 at Palo Alto? 04 A. That there was a group of parents there that 05 were objecting to the program. 06 Q. And did you learn that there had been a lot of 07 dissension and bitterness about the program? 08 A. I don't know what you mean by a lot. I did 09 talk to the people out there, and they said it was a 10 very small group. So I don't know what you consider a 11 lot. 12 Q. It was a big issue in one of the elections out 13 there, wasn't it? 14 A. It was. 15 Q. And they told you that, didn't they? 16 A. They did. 17 Q. And they told you that there were a lot of 18 parents in Palo Alto that opposed the program because 19 it didn't teach math? 20 A. No, they did not say that. 21 Q. Now, you said that there's a Web site out 22 there, Mathematically Correct, that has a lot of 23 information about programs like connected math? 24 A. It doesn't have a lot of information about 25 programs like connected math. It doesn't have a lot of 0075 01 information that I could tell. 02 Q. What is the URL on that? 03 A. I don't know. 04 Q. Do you know what the Web site address is? 05 A. No. 06 Q. Have you downloaded that Web site? 07 A. Downloaded it? 08 Q. Yes. 09 A. No. 10 Q. Printed it off? 11 A. (Moving head side to side.) 12 Q. Have you printed off the Web site to your 13 hard drive? 14 A. No. 15 Q. When did you first become aware that there 16 were parents in the Plano Independent School District 17 who were concerned about the school district's use of 18 connected math in the middle schools? 19 A. It was after the -- I believe it was after the 20 second year. And Mrs. Jenkins called me and asked me 21 if I would come to an information meeting during the 22 summer. 23 Q. What summer was that? 1998? 24 A. I'm not really -- I guess that would be '98, 25 yeah. 0076 01 Q. Sometime in -- 02 A. It was after the -- after the second year of 03 the pilot. 04 Q. So sometime in June of that year? 05 A. I think the meeting was -- I'm not really 06 sure. It was during the summer. That's all I 07 remember. 08 Q. Where was the meeting at? 09 A. It was at a library, Haggard Library over by 10 Williams. 11 Q. I'm sorry. The what library? 12 A. The library over by Williams High School. 13 Q. Is that a public library? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. You need to answer with words. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. A city library? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Next to Wilson? 20 A. Williams -- 21 Q. Williams? 22 A. -- High school. 23 Q. Did you go to the meeting? 24 A. I did. 25 Q. And who do you recall being at that meeting? 0077 01 A. Mrs. Jenkins. 02 Q. She's one of the Plaintiffs in this case? 03 A. Yes. Mr. Mills, and I was there. Ms. Brooks 04 was there. Several of my teachers were there, and a 05 group of parents. 06 Q. How many parents, approximately? 07 A. Oh, I don't know. Maybe 50. 08 Q. 50? 09 A. I'm not really sure. 10 Q. Who monitored -- who moderated the meeting? 11 A. Mr. Mills. 12 Q. Who is Mr. Mills? 13 A. He's just a parent in the district. He was on 14 the school board. 15 Q. So he's a previous school board member? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Tell me what you recall about the meeting. 18 A. I don't recall a lot. I gave some information 19 about the program and then -- 20 Q. What program? 21 A. About the connected math program. 22 Q. Okay. So the subject matter of the meeting 23 was connected math? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. Go ahead. 0078 01 A. And then I don't remember what else. There 02 was another speaker that spoke against the program, and 03 then there was a question and answer session. And my 04 teachers answered most of the questions. I didn't say 05 much else. 06 Q. This meeting was not organized by the school 07 district, was it? 08 A. No, it was not. 09 Q. It was organized by a group of parents? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. And you were an invited guest to come 12 and speak? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did they give you an opportunity to talk? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. I'm sorry? 17 A. Yes, they did. 18 Q. Did they give you an opportunity to distribute 19 any literature that you wanted to distribute to the 20 parents? 21 A. I didn't have any literature. 22 Q. But no one said you couldn't distribute 23 anything, did they? 24 A. I didn't ask. 25 Q. Okay. Didn't take anything; didn't ask? 0079 01 A. No. 02 Q. Okay. The people who spoke, the parents who 03 spoke, did they speak against the program? You said 04 there was one person that spoke against the program. 05 Were most -- 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. -- of the parents there speaking against the 08 program? 09 A. I think so, as I recall. I'm not real sure. 10 I don't remember. As I recall, most of them were. 11 Q. Okay. And other than Mr. Mills and Mrs. 12 Jenkins, did you know any of the parents there? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Okay. Did you talk to any of the parents 15 there? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did anyone tell you, you couldn't talk to any 18 of the parents there? 19 A. No. 20 Q. All right. Approximately how long did the 21 meeting last? 22 A. Gosh, an hour and a half maybe. 23 Q. And this was a meeting of parents of middle 24 school children who had been in the program, the 25 connected math program? 0080 01 A. There would be no way for me to know that. 02 Q. You don't know that one way or another? 03 A. No. 04 Q. They could have been just questioning and 05 concerned about it or they may have had their children 06 in it and so forth? 07 A. Yeah. I have no way of knowing. 08 Q. Would anyone deny you the right to take the 09 podium and to speak to the group? 10 A. I did speak to the group. 11 Q. You did speak to the group? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Oh, okay. So you -- 14 A. They invited me to speak to the group. 15 Q. They invited you to speak? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. So you were given the floor to get up in front 18 of the group and to speak on the connected math program 19 to the parents and to say whatever you wanted to say? 20 A. They invited me to that meeting. 21 Q. Okay. Now, what did you tell the parents that 22 night? 23 A. I just gave them information about the 24 program, told them where it had come from and... 25 Q. Did you tell them what the school district had 0081 01 been doing on the program? 02 A. I really don't remember what -- you know, I 03 just remember talking about the program. I don't 04 remember whether we discussed the pilot or... 05 Q. By the way, before I forget this, because this 06 is a question I want you to answer -- 07 A. Uh-huh. 08 Q. -- you talked about TSSI earlier -- 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. -- and they had federal funding -- 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- for doing what they were doing. Did TSSI 13 or anyone else give any grants to the Plano Independent 14 School District for the connected math program? 15 A. TSSI did not give a grant. 16 Q. Who did? 17 A. Michigan State gave a grant to the -- to the 18 TSSI. 19 Q. And did Michigan State, to your knowledge and 20 understanding, get that money from the National Science 21 Foundation or from the federal government? 22 A. National Science Foundation, I believe. 23 Q. Gave them the money? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And then Michigan State then gave that money 0082 01 to TSSI? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Was this because of what Plano had implemented 04 or was it across the state? 05 A. The way it had worked is, when we went for the 06 weekend, they had grants available that you could apply 07 for if you wanted to pilot the program. So -- 08 Q. And you're talking about when you and Donna 09 first went up there? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, did they pay your way up there? 12 A. No. 13 Q. The school district did? 14 A. I believe so. I really don't remember. 15 Q. Okay. And when you got up there, they told 16 you about grants that were available if you wanted to 17 pilot the program? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What did they tell you about those -- about 20 the money that was available? 21 A. Not a whole lot. Just that there were grants 22 available. 23 Q. And did the school districts have to complete 24 those grants and submit those? 25 A. No. 0083 01 Q. So if you decided to pilot the program, there 02 would be money available for piloting that program? 03 A. If you applied for a grant. 04 Q. Okay. Did Plano apply for a grant? 05 A. We did not. What we did is, we went together 06 with seven other school districts in the state -- or 07 there were seven of us altogether -- and the Texas 08 Statewide Systemic Initiative applied for the grant. 09 Q. Who were the seven other school districts? 10 A. If I can remember correctly it was North 11 Lamar, Austin, El Paso, Lubbock, Region 1 -- and is 12 that seven? How many have I got? 13 Q. Five. 14 A. Who am I leaving out. 15 Q. Plano is on there, so that's six. 16 A. That's six. Oh, Corpus Christi. 17 Q. So these seven school districts worked with 18 TSSI to apply for a grant to receive federal funds to 19 support this program? 20 A. The TSSI applied for the grant. 21 Q. Because of the seven school districts that 22 agreed to pilot the program? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You had to have somebody agree to pilot the 25 program? 0084 01 A. Right. 02 Q. How much did TSSI get in that grant? 03 A. I don't know. 04 Q. How much did the Plano Independent School 05 District get as a portion of that grant? 06 A. We didn't get any money from that. 07 Q. Where did the money go? 08 A. The money went for training. 09 Q. To who? 10 A. For the teachers in the seven school 11 districts. So we had training each summer that we did 12 the program. And the Texas Statewide Systemic 13 Initiative paid for all of that training. 14 Q. So all of your teachers in the Plano 15 Independent School District that went down to Austin 16 for training, their expenses were paid? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. How about materials? Was that paid? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Reimbursement for classroom materials? 21 A. No. 22 Q. How about textbooks? 23 A. No. 24 Q. How many teachers did you have going down to 25 TSSI for training on connected math? 0085 01 A. I don't remember exactly, but the first year 02 we probably had -- probably had around 12, because we 03 took all of the teachers from 6th grade at each of 04 those schools, so... 05 Q. At each of the four schools? 06 A. Each of the four schools. And we have -- 07 usually have about three. 08 Q. And did they go to Austin for the training? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. And who sponsored the training? 11 A. The Texas Statewide Systemic Initiative. 12 Q. So it was at their offices down at the 13 University of Texas? 14 A. It was at the Lakeway Conference Center. 15 Q. Not bad. 16 A. It was nice, yes. 17 Q. How long did the training last? 18 A. A week. 19 Q. A week, okay. Basically all day, five days? 20 A. It was a little more than five days. They 21 went on -- I'm thinking we started on Sunday. We 22 started Sunday afternoon, if I remember correctly, and 23 they went through Saturday -- the next Saturday at 24 noon. 25 Q. Now, this was all during the time that you 0086 01 were doing the pilot program, right? 02 A. That first training was before we started the 03 pilot, just to get them ready to start that first year. 04 Q. So that would have been the summer of 1996? 05 A. Yeah, about there. 06 Q. And you had your 12 teachers of math in your 07 four middle schools that went down for that training? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Okay. 10 A. And we also took -- that very first summer 11 they also invited the principals to come. 12 Q. Okay. Did you go down? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. So you also went through the training? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, you said the TSSI sponsored it. I mean, 17 they were the host and paid for the expenses and paid 18 for the Lakeway Conference Center and the -- 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. -- food and travel and that kind of thing? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. But who actually did the training? 23 A. Teachers from Michigan who came down who had 24 been teaching the program. 25 Q. From the university or from public schools? 0087 01 A. Public schools. 02 Q. Okay. Anybody else? 03 A. I believe some of the university people were 04 there that summer too. I believe Bill Fitzgerald came 05 down. I believe he was there. I don't remember if 06 anybody else was or not. 07 Q. Now, I assume that the other school districts 08 in the state of Texas who were participating in the 09 pilot program also sent their teachers, principals, 10 administrators -- 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- for training? So what did you have, what, 13 150, 200 people there? 14 A. Yes, about that. 15 Q. And then TSSI picked up the bill on the whole 16 thing? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And it's your understanding they got that 19 money from the federal government? 20 A. No, from Michigan State. 21 Q. Michigan State, who got it from the federal 22 government? 23 A. Who got it from the National Science 24 Foundation. 25 Q. Oh, okay -- who got it from the federal 0088 01 government; is that your understanding? You said 02 earlier that it was a federally-assisted or 03 federally-funded program. I'm just wondering what the 04 basis of it is. 05 A. No. I said that the TSSI was -- I thought was 06 federally funded. 07 Q. Okay. So the school district -- the local 08 school districts weren't out any cost. It was just the 09 teachers going down for this training? 10 A. No, I didn't say that either. I -- we bought 11 the materials and we bought the textbooks. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. So as far as training, no. They paid for the 14 training for our teachers to come. 15 Q. What textbook were you using in your pilot 16 program on the CMP? You said you bought the textbooks? 17 A. The CMP textbooks? 18 Q. Right. What textbooks did you use? 19 A. Well, there's -- there's a -- the connected 20 math program comes in a series of books. There are 21 eight -- eight units at each grade level. And we 22 bought six of those units for 6th grade, and we bought 23 six of them for 7th and six of them for 8th. 24 Q. Okay. And who publishes that textbook? 25 A. At the present time -- 0089 01 Q. At the time -- 02 A. -- or when we bought it? 03 Q. At the time you were doing the pilot. 04 A. It was in a transition at this point. It was 05 originally published by Dale Seymour. Then Dale 06 Seymour was purchased by Addison-Westley, and 07 Addison-Westley -- when we -- I don't remember whether 08 we bought the first materials from Dale Seymour or 09 whether it was from Addison-Westley. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. Then Addison was bought by Scott Foresman, 12 which was bought by Prentice Hall. So we now deal with 13 Prentice Hall. 14 Q. The first year that you did the pilot 15 program, did you have textbooks for the students? 16 A. We had classroom sets of textbooks. 17 Q. What do you mean by classroom sets? 18 A. We had a set of 30 in the classroom. We did 19 not have a book for each student to take home. 20 Q. And that would have been the 1996-'97 school 21 year? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. So you only had 30 sets of the textbooks and 24 students couldn't take them home? 25 A. No. We only had 30 sets per teacher or 30 0090 01 books per teacher. Each teacher had their own class 02 set. 03 Q. Okay. How about the '97-'98 school year? 04 A. We -- 05 Q. How about -- 06 A. -- had the class set -- 07 Q. -- how did you get textbooks? 08 A. -- throughout the pilot. 09 Q. So you didn't have anything for the students 10 to take home? 11 A. Well, we had things for the students to take 12 home, but not -- 13 Q. It wasn't a textbook. 14 A. -- textbooks. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. And students could take textbooks home if they 17 wanted to come and check them out after school and 18 bring them back the next morning. 19 Q. And your materials that you used: handouts, 20 training aids, training materials, where did you 21 purchase those? 22 A. Handouts we did mostly ourselves. 23 Q. So they were developed here at the 24 administration offices? 25 A. Well, some of the things came out of the 0091 01 connected math books. We would -- we duplicated all of 02 the homework assignments for the students so that they 03 did have those to take home. 04 Q. Now, when you got to this parent meeting in 05 the summer of 1998, and you went into the meeting and 06 Mr. Mills began his discussion of what the meeting was 07 about, you had known from your conversation with 08 Mrs. Jenkins that there was going to be parents at the 09 meeting and that you were going to be discussing the 10 connected math program? 11 A. Yes, that was my understanding. 12 Q. And that's the first time that you had any 13 indication that there were any parents in the District 14 who had questions or concerns or criticisms of the 15 connected math program; is that right? 16 A. Well, I wouldn't say didn't have questions. 17 We -- parents always had questions. We had parent 18 nights at each of the pilot schools before we started 19 the program -- or in the fall when we initially started 20 the program, and they had the opportunity to ask 21 questions and we answered them at that time. And we 22 did that each year in the pilot program. 23 Q. Let me ask the question this way. The first 24 time that you became aware that there was a controversy 25 over connected math was in the summer of 1998; would 0092 01 that be true? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Okay. And it's because of that parent meeting 04 that you went to when you heard parents who were 05 critical of the program? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. Were there any -- now, in addition to you 08 speaking before the parents, were there any other 09 administrators or employees of the school district that 10 spoke to the parents' group? 11 A. Well, some -- they answered questions, but no 12 one -- no one spoke. 13 Q. Were you given -- 14 A. If you're talking about got up and gave a 15 presentation like I did. 16 Q. Okay. Yes, that's what I was asking. Thank 17 you for the clarification. 18 A. Just me. 19 Q. All right. So you got up and made a -- took 20 the floor, stood in front of the group and made a 21 presentation of the program. And then I assume you 22 took questions and answers? 23 A. I don't remember whether we had questions and 24 answers at that point or whether we waited until the 25 end. 0093 01 Q. Okay. And then other teachers were there that 02 were part of the program? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. Ms. Brooks was there. Did Ms. Brooks speak? 05 A. She didn't speak. I don't remember whether 06 she answered -- I don't think she answered any 07 questions. 08 Q. All right. What next? Did you have any 09 contact with any of the parents in the district that 10 were opposing the connected math program? 11 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. 12 Q. Were there any other non-district sponsored 13 parent meetings that summer that you went to? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did you have any telephone calls from any 16 parents prior to the start of school? 17 A. I probably did, but I don't remember. 18 Q. Any letters, anything sent to you questioning 19 or expressing concern about the connected math program 20 prior to the start of school? 21 A. I couldn't tell you whether they were before 22 the start of school or not. You know, along the way we 23 did have some. I would receive things from board 24 members occasionally that some parent had asked them 25 some questions, or I would receive -- you know, parents 0094 01 would call. I don't know exactly when -- when that 02 would be. 03 Q. Now, at the beginning of the school year in 04 August of 1998, it's my understanding that there were a 05 series of parent meetings at some of the middle 06 schools; is that right? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. And the purpose of these parent meetings was 09 to -- well, the subject matter was connected math; is 10 that correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Who made the decision about when these 13 meetings would go on and where they would go on? 14 A. About when they would be, I don't really 15 remember who made that decision. The -- it was 16 suggested that the schools have them, and then I 17 believe the principals picked the dates of when they 18 were -- when they would have the meetings. 19 Q. And who suggested that they have them? 20 A. I don't remember. I don't remember whether it 21 came from the cabinet or whether it came from the 22 school board. I don't remember. 23 Q. Who is the cabinet? 24 A. I believe it consists of the superintendent 25 and the assistant superintendents. 0095 01 Q. But there was a meeting called and parents 02 were invited? 03 A. A meeting? 04 Q. There were a series of meetings called at each 05 of these middle schools where the connected math 06 program was in pilot? 07 A. Yes. Well, not only in pilot, we did them at 08 some of the other schools too. 09 Q. Where they weren't even in pilot? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. But it was couched as a parent-teacher math 12 night or something to that effect? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Let me ask you to look at some exhibits. We 15 have exhibits in front of you and they're -- 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. -- labeled. Look at Exhibit 2, if you would, 18 for instance. It should be in order in front of you -- 19 Deposition Exhibit 2. 20 This is an information sheet going out to 21 parents, informing them about the connected math 22 project. It's something that you signed as secondary 23 mathematics coordinator; is that correct? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. And this would be a typical type of 0096 01 information that would be distributed to the parents? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Intended for the parents to review; intended 04 to disseminate information to them about connected 05 math? 06 A. That's correct. 07 Q. Who prepared this letter, by the way? 08 A. The teachers in the pilot -- pilot schools 09 worked on it together. 10 Q. Did you review it? 11 A. I did. 12 Q. Okay. And this was disseminated, it's my 13 understanding, by handing it to the students and asking 14 them to take it home to their parents in their 15 carry-home folders? 16 A. I don't know how it was disseminated. 17 Q. Was that the way you understand it was 18 disseminated? 19 A. That's the way I understand, but I really -- I 20 don't know. 21 Q. Okay. When you were preparing it, signing it, 22 and I assume somebody made copies of it, you understood 23 that it would be -- it was your understanding that's 24 how it was going to be disseminated? 25 A. I didn't have any understanding. We just did 0097 01 them and said, they're available if you would like to 02 send them home -- however they wanted to do it. 03 Q. Up to the principal? 04 A. Of the school, uh-huh. 05 Q. Okay. Exhibit 3, the next one over is another 06 example, again, a document that you signed. It was 07 disseminated and addressed to parent or guardian, 08 correct? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. Exhibit No. 4 is the same. Exhibit 11 No. 5 is the same; is that correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. These are all signed by you? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. Okay. Exhibit No. 6 was signed by you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Exhibit No. 7; is that correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. And so look at Exhibit No. 8, if you 20 would. This is an announcement of a math meeting in 21 1997; is that correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. And that's an example of something that 24 would be disseminated to the parents concerning the 25 connected math project? 0098 01 A. It was. 02 Q. This one says connected mathematics project on 03 it. 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. It also says that you will be the speaker. 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. Exhibit No. 9 was signed by you; is that 08 right? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. Exhibit No. 10 is an August 27th -- or 11 announcement of an August 27th meeting at Wilson Middle 12 School; is that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And a guest speaker would be yourself? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. So these are the types of information 17 that was disseminated out to the parents, encouraging 18 them to come to the meetings to get information about 19 connected mathematics; is that right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you intended for the parents to come, 22 didn't you? 23 A. We hoped so. 24 Q. And, I mean, your goal was to get as many of 25 them there as you could, right? 0099 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Okay. So that you'd have an opportunity to 03 give them information about the connected math program, 04 you'd have information to -- if you chose to, to 05 distribute information to them through literature. If 06 you wanted to do that, you could do that, right? 07 A. We didn't intend to distribute any literature. 08 It was just an information night. 09 Q. About connected math? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. And you did it in the evening so it 12 didn't interrupt school? 13 A. (Moving head up and down.) 14 Q. Is that right? 15 A. Well, it wasn't so it didn't interrupt school. 16 It was so the parents could come. Most of them work. 17 It's a little hard for them to get away during the day. 18 Q. Okay. Now, you attended most of these parent 19 meetings; is that correct? 20 A. Most, yes. 21 Q. And would it be fair, Doctor, to say -- and I 22 don't want to go over exactly what you said to each 23 parent group -- but let me ask you, would it be fair, 24 let's say, in August of 1998 when you were attending 25 these meetings that you were there as a spokesman for 0100 01 the District? 02 A. Some meetings I was; some I was not. 03 Q. Okay. But either yourself or someone in the 04 mathematics department or some of your teachers 05 would -- who had been through the training program were 06 there as spokespersons for the District? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. And would it be fair to say that you and the 09 other speakers at these meetings were speaking in favor 10 of the connected mathematics project? 11 A. No. We simply wanted to give information 12 about the program. 13 Q. Did you ever -- 14 A. That was the intent. 15 Q. Okay. Did you ever go to any of the parents 16 meetings and encourage them, for instance, to contact 17 their school board member about the project because you 18 didn't think it was a good project? 19 A. I don't remember ever encouraging them to do 20 that. 21 Q. All right. You pretty well thought it was a 22 good project, didn't you? 23 A. Oh, sure. 24 Q. Okay. I mean, you had brought the project 25 into the school district. You had encouraged the 0101 01 project. You had been involved in the training. You 02 had taken teachers down to Austin to get training. You 03 wouldn't have done that if you didn't believe in the 04 project, would you? 05 A. No, I wouldn't. 06 Q. So you believed in the project? 07 A. Well, I thought it was a good project, yes. 08 Q. And you believed in the materials and in the 09 textbook and in what the connected math project had to 10 offer to the students, didn't you? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you expressed that belief in what you were 13 telling the parents that night, didn't you? 14 A. No. What we did at those parent meetings was 15 to just give them information about the program. 16 Q. If you were asked a question about, well, 17 Doctor, is this a good program for our kids, you would 18 have responded positively to that, wouldn't you? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. The purpose of your meeting and the purpose of 21 what you were saying was not to be critical of what you 22 were promoting in the school, was it? 23 A. We were not trying to promote one thing or 24 another, and we were not trying to be critical of one 25 thing or another. The point of those meetings was just 0102 01 to give information. 02 Q. Okay. And it was to inform the parents of 03 what the connected math program was, and this is what 04 we've chosen to do, and we're going to do this the next 05 year, right? 06 A. No, we didn't say that. What we told them was 07 that we were piloting the program. 08 Q. Okay. And piloting means a -- kind of a test 09 of the program? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. And so you were going to test the 12 program to see how the program worked, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And if you concluded that the program worked 15 well, you were going to promote that program throughout 16 all of the other middle schools, right? 17 A. No, that is not my job. What we did was to 18 run the pilot. Then it's up to the teachers to make 19 that decision. 20 Q. But at some point, a recommendation is made to 21 the superintendent? 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 Q. And you're in that chain of command, aren't 24 you? 25 A. No. 0103 01 Q. Aren't you part of the -- aren't you one of 02 the people who would participate in deciding whether or 03 not to recommend to the superintendent that this 04 program be implemented district-wide? 05 A. No. 06 Q. You were the person responsible for initiating 07 the program into the school district? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. And you certainly wanted to see the pilot 10 program work? 11 A. I didn't -- not one way or another. That's 12 why we did a pilot, so that we would know whether or 13 not it was a good program, whether it worked. 14 Q. Now, at any of these parent meetings, did you 15 go to the Mathematically Correct Web site and pull down 16 any information about connected math and disseminate 17 that. 18 A. At these meetings? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. I didn't pull out any Web sites at any of the 21 meetings. 22 Q. Did you ever disseminate information at any of 23 these meetings to the parents about the experience of 24 other school districts who had used connected math? 25 A. No. 0104 01 Q. Did you ever disseminate any information that 02 was critical of connected math to any of the parents? 03 A. No. 04 Q. Did you ever disseminate any information that 05 called into question whether or not the connected math 06 materials, textbooks, or program complied with the 07 TEKS? 08 A. I thought you already asked me that question. 09 You asked me if I had disseminated those handouts from 10 TEA. 11 Q. No, no. I'm asking did you -- and when you're 12 speaking to the parents, when you're talking to the 13 parents, were you critical of the connected math 14 program? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Okay. Now, it would be fair to say, wouldn't 17 it, that if you didn't like the program, that you would 18 not have continued to try to see the pilot work at the 19 school, that you would have expressed opposition to it? 20 A. If I thought it was not working or I didn't 21 think it was? 22 Q. Yes, sir. 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. You would have expressed opposition -- 25 A. Yes. 0105 01 Q. -- at some level; is that right? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. And you never expressed any opposition at any 04 level to the program, did you? 05 A. No. 06 Q. To your superiors and in your administration 07 meetings and in your parent meetings, you were never in 08 opposition to the connected math program, were you? 09 A. No. 10 Q. Is that true? 11 A. Yes. 12 (Exhibit No. 65 marked.) 13 Q. Let me hand you Exhibit 65, and ask you to 14 take a look at that. I believe Exhibit 65 is an 15 affidavit that you filed in this case; is that correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And let me refer you to the last page. 18 There's a page missing here. The last page has your 19 signature on it? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And there's a -- page 3 is missing out of my 22 copy. Is it in your copy? I don't know if it is or 23 not. 24 A. I don't see numbers on the pages. Oh -- 25 no 3. 0106 01 Q. Page 3 is missing, okay. I'll substitute the 02 full affidavit. I don't think there's any dispute on 03 the record about that. 04 But you indicate that, in paragraph 6, that on 05 August the 25th -- this is on page 4 -- that you 06 attended a meeting at the Haggard Middle School? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Is that correct? 09 A. I did. 10 Q. All right. You also indicated in your 11 affidavit that one of the Plaintiffs in this case, 12 Mr. Kirke, brought some materials to the meeting and 13 that he placed those materials on a table or -- some 14 kind of a table; is that right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. Did you see Mr. Kirke's materials on 17 that table that night? 18 A. He showed them to me. 19 Q. Oh, he did? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. That night. 23 Q. So tell me, when did you first recognize 24 Mr. Kirke that night -- or what do you recall about 25 Mr. Kirke and what he did that night? 0107 01 A. As to my recollection when I came in, he said 02 to me that he had some materials and wanted me to look 03 at them. 04 Q. So he handed them to you? 05 A. Uh-huh. 06 Q. Okay. Did the materials deal with connected 07 math? 08 A. No. 09 Q. What did they deal with? 10 A. They dealt with -- as I recall, one of them 11 was from the Department of Defense about a mathematics 12 program that they had tried -- and it did not say 13 connected math -- and that they had tried it and it had 14 not worked for them and they were no longer using it. 15 Q. Okay. So Mr. Kirke's materials dealt with a 16 mathematics program, as you recall -- 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- that someone had tried and it had failed? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. Okay. And did he place those materials out 21 for parents to pick up? 22 A. Yes, he had them on the table or whatever we 23 had out there. I don't remember exactly what it was. 24 Q. Okay. And did you tell him not to do that? 25 A. No. 0108 01 Q. Did you tell him to pick them up? 02 A. I asked him if he would move them to another 03 location. 04 Q. Did he comply? 05 A. Yes, he did. 06 Q. Okay. Another location within the room? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Okay. Now, at some point during the evening 09 as the parents -- and this was early on in the evening 10 that you met Mr. Kirke, wasn't it? 11 A. Yes. It was before the meeting. 12 Q. Before the meeting? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. So it was before any of the other 15 parents started arriving? 16 A. I don't remember whether anybody else was 17 there at that point or not. But if there was anybody 18 there, there weren't many. 19 Q. Okay. Eventually as it got closer to the 20 meeting time, you had more and more people coming in? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. At some point, as more and more parents began 23 to arrive, did Mr. Kirke start distributing petitions 24 to the parents? 25 A. What he did is he started to ask people as 0109 01 soon as they came in the door if they would sign a 02 petition. 03 Q. As they were coming in the hallway? 04 A. As they were coming in the door to the room. 05 Q. Okay. So it was before the meeting started, 06 as they were kind of -- everybody was mingling in to 07 the meeting? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Mr. Kirke was asking them if they would sign a 10 petition? 11 A. As they were coming in the door. 12 Q. And was his petition in opposition to 13 connected math, or what do you recall about his 14 petition? 15 A. I didn't see the petition. 16 Q. Okay. Are you aware of what his petition 17 stated? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Okay. Now, you used the word petition in your 20 affidavit in paragraph 9. What did you understand a 21 petition for someone to sign -- what do you understand 22 that to mean? 23 A. My understanding is that there's some 24 statement at the top and they signed it if they agreed. 25 Q. All right. Or a request -- it could be a 0110 01 request addressed to someone? 02 A. I guess, yeah. 03 Q. And it's a signature petition, right? 04 A. Yes. He was asking them to sign it. 05 Q. Okay. Did you ever ask Mr. Kirke what was on 06 his petition? 07 A. No. 08 Q. Did you ever see his petition? 09 A. No. 10 Q. Okay. Now, in paragraph 10 of your affidavit, 11 it states that you believed that Mr. Kirke's actions 12 were -- and using your own words -- inappropriate. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Why do you believe that Mr. Kirke's request to 15 parents to sign a petition -- and let's back up to 16 paragraph 9. You state in your affidavit that as the 17 parents begin to arrive for the meeting, Mr. Kirke 18 asked the parents to sign a petition opposing the 19 connected math program. So you knew that's what his 20 petition was about? 21 A. I assumed that's what it was, yes. 22 Q. Okay. Well, your affidavit says -- 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. -- that that's what he was doing -- 25 A. Yes. 0111 01 Q. -- right? Okay. And the subject matter of 02 that meeting was connected math? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. All right. Now, in paragraph 10 of your 05 affidavit, you state that you believe that Mr. Kirke's 06 request to the parents that were mingling into the 07 meeting to sign a petition in opposition to connected 08 math was, in your own words, inappropriate. 09 My question is, why do you believe it was 10 inappropriate? 11 MR. CRAWFORD: I'm going to object to 12 that to the extent it misstates what his affidavit 13 says. 14 A. Yes. And I didn't say that. I didn't say 15 that signing the petition was inappropriate. I said 16 what Mr. Kirke was doing was inappropriate. And what 17 he was doing was getting people the minute they came in 18 the door before they had a chance to do anything, to 19 sit down, to talk to anyone. And I thought it put the 20 parents in a very awkward position. 21 Q. You mean, if someone comes into the door of a 22 meeting, you think it's inappropriate for someone to 23 ask them at that point to sign a petition opposing the 24 subject matter of the meeting? 25 A. Before they've even had a chance to hear 0112 01 what's going on at the meeting. 02 Q. Okay. Did you see anyone that night tell 03 Mr. Kirke to pick up his materials? 04 A. Did I see anyone ask him to pick up his 05 materials? 06 Q. Yes, the materials that he was laying out that 07 night. Did you see anyone ask him to pick those up? 08 A. Ms. Burleson and I asked him to move them to 09 another location. 10 Q. Did you see anybody tell him that he needed to 11 not distribute those materials? 12 A. I know Dr. Davis was there. I don't know 13 exactly what he said to him. 14 Q. Do you know that Dr. Davis had a conversation 15 with Mr. Kirke -- not what he said, but do you know 16 that they had a conversation? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. So from a distance, you could see them 19 conversing? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you overhear what Dr. Davis said to 22 Mr. Kirke? 23 A. No, I don't know what he said to him. 24 Q. Do you know what he told Mr. Kirke? 25 A. No, I don't. 0113 01 Q. Did you see Mr. Kirke take action in response 02 to what Dr. Davis said? 03 A. I wasn't paying any attention. At that point, 04 we were getting ready for the meeting. 05 Q. Did you see, at any point, Mr. Kirke collect 06 his materials and put them away so that they would not 07 be visible to the parents? 08 A. I really don't recall. 09 Q. Did you see Mr. Kirke at any point stop asking 10 parents to sign petitions in opposition to connected 11 math? 12 A. He stopped when -- while Mr. Davis was talking 13 to him. 14 Q. Did you see him -- 15 A. Other than that, I don't know. 16 Q. Okay. So you saw Dr. Davis approach Mr. Kirke 17 as he was approaching parents asking them to sign the 18 petition? 19 A. I don't know when he approached him or how he 20 approached him. I don't know. I don't remember that. 21 Q. You don't have any knowledge of that? 22 A. I don't remember any of it. 23 Q. After Dr. Davis approached Mr. Kirke and had 24 his conversation, did you see Mr. Kirke stop -- after 25 the conversation was completed -- asking parents to 0114 01 sign the petition? 02 A. As I already said, I was -- we were getting 03 ready for the meeting, so I really wasn't paying any 04 attention at that point. 05 Q. Now, did Mr. Kirke -- you were part of the 06 program for the meeting, weren't you? 07 A. No, I was really not at that particular 08 meeting. Ms. Burleson handled that meeting. 09 Q. All right. 10 A. And her teachers. 11 Q. During the time that the meeting was going on 12 when Ms. Burleson and her teachers were talking, did 13 Mr. Kirke or any of the Plaintiffs in this case, if 14 they were there, attempt to shout down Ms. Burleson or 15 attempt to interrupt her speech as she was speaking to 16 the parents? 17 A. Not that I recall. 18 Q. Did you see them attempt to physically 19 interfere with the speech of the administrators that 20 night? 21 A. Not that I recall. 22 Q. Did they distract any of the parents that 23 night by causing a commotion or a ruckus or anything 24 like that, that you saw? 25 A. During the meeting? 0115 01 Q. During the meeting. 02 A. During the meeting, no. Not that I recall. 03 Q. Okay. Now, there were some distractions 04 before the meeting started because of Mr. Kirk handing 05 out these petitions, wasn't there? 06 A. Yes, sir. 07 Q. Because parents were kind of milling around 08 before the meeting got started and, what's this all 09 about and, you know, what's this information, right? 10 A. (Moving head up and down.) 11 Q. Is that correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Now, Ms. Burleson said there was a mood or a 14 feeling in the room of concern about the math program. 15 Did you feel that way? 16 A. No, I didn't. 17 Q. You didn't get a mood feeling from the parents 18 there? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. They're her parents, so she probably knows 22 them better than -- you know, I don't deal with her 23 parents like that, you know, like she would. 24 Q. So it would be fair to say you didn't have 25 that sense of a mood in the room, that there was an 0116 01 atmosphere of distrust or anything; is that right? 02 A. No. 03 Q. Am I correct? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. Okay. But during the actual presentation of 06 the meeting, neither Mr. Kirke nor any other Plaintiffs 07 that you know, disrupted the meeting itself, did they? 08 A. Not that I recall. 09 Q. Now, your affidavit said that on October the 10 12th, 1998 you went to a meeting at Hendri