0001 01 IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS 01 FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT 02 02 03 CELIA J. CHIU; DENISE BROWN; * 03 VERONICA C. JENKINS; DENISE * 04 KIRKE; ALFRED G. KIRKE; AND * 04 KENNETH R. JOHNSON * 05 * 05 Plaintiffs/Appellees, * 06 * 06 VS. * NO. 00-40613 07 * 07 PLANO INDEPENDENT SCHOOL * 08 DISTRICT, ET AL. * 08 * 09 Defendants, * 09 * 10 JAMES DAVIS, DR., PISD CENTRAL * 10 CLUSTER AREA ASSISTANT * 11 SUPERINTENDENT; MARILYN BROOKS, * 11 ASSOCIATE SUPERINTENDENT FOR * 12 CURRICULUM AND INSTRUCTIONS; * 12 JAMES WOHLGEHAGEN, DR.; * 13 ROXANNE BURLESON, PRINCIPAL * 13 HAGGARD MIDDLE SCHOOL; CORKY * 14 CRISWELL, PRINCIPAL HENDRICK * 14 MIDDLE SCHOOL; BEVERLY SELLERS, * 15 PRINCIPAL WILSON MIDDLE SCHOOL, * 15 * 16 Defendants/Appellants. * 16 17 18 19 ******************************************** 20 ORAL DEPOSITION OF 21 BEVERLY SELLERS 22 OCTOBER 6, 2000 23 ******************************************** 24 25 0002 01 ORAL DEPOSITION OF BEVERLY SELLERS, produced as 02 a witness at the instance of the Plaintiffs, and duly 03 sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered cause 04 on the 6th day of October, 2000, from 1:58 p.m. to 05 5:48 p.m., before Sunny Schaen, a CSR in and for the 06 State of Texas, reported stenographically, at the 07 offices of the Plano Independent School District, 08 2700 West 15th Street, Plano, Texas 75075, pursuant to 09 the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and the provision 10 stated on the record. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0003 01 A P P E A R A N C E S 02 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 02 Mr. William Charles Bundren 03 Attorney at Law 03 P. O. Box 702647 04 Dallas, Texas 75370 04 (972) 630-3555 05 05 06 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: 06 Mr. Richard M. Abernathy 07 ABERNATHY ROEDER BOYD & JOPLIN, P.C. 07 1700 Redbud Boulevard 08 Suite 300 08 P.O. Box 1210 09 McKinney, Texas 75070-1210 09 (214) 544-4000 10 10 11 ALSO PRESENT: Mrs. Ronni Jenkins 11 Mr. Kenneth R. Johnson 12 Mr. Alfred Kirke 12 13 13 14 14 15 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 0004 01 I N D E X 01 02 WITNESS PAGE 02 BEVERLY SELLERS 03 03 EXAMINATION 04 BY: MR. BUNDREN 5 04 05 05 06 EXHIBITS INDEX 06 07 EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED 07 08 76 Diagram of Wilson Middle School 95 08 09 77 Affidavit of Beverly Sellers 98 09 10 78 Publication of the Plano Independent 99 10 School District, Board of Trustees 11 11 12 12 13 13 14 14 15 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 0005 01 P R O C E E D I N G S 02 REPORTER'S NOTE: The following was stated on the 03 record in the deposition of Marilyn Brooks, and by 04 agreement of all parties will also apply for this 05 deposition. 06 * * * * * * 07 MR. BUNDREN: Do you want to take this 08 under the Rules? 09 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes. 10 * * * * * * 11 BEVERLY SELLERS, 12 having being first duly sworn, testified as follows: 13 EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. BUNDREN: 15 Q. Would you state your name for the record, 16 please. 17 A. Beverly Sellers. 18 Q. Ms. Sellers, my name is Charles Bundren. I'm 19 an attorney. I represent some plaintiffs who are 20 parents in the Plano Independent School District. Do 21 you understand that? 22 A. I do. 23 Q. I'm going to be asking you some questions 24 today about a lawsuit that they filed against some 25 public officials and the school district. Do you 0006 01 understand that? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Have you ever been deposed before? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. How many times? 06 A. Once. 07 Q. What was that in relation to? 08 A. That was in relationship to a suit that the 09 District had filed against a family. 10 Q. Have you ever testified live under oath 11 before? 12 A. Yes, I have. 13 Q. How many times? 14 A. Once. 15 Q. Was it in the same suit? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. If I ask you a question today that you 18 don't understand, I'd like for you to ask me to repeat 19 it -- 20 A. I will. 21 Q. -- before you try to answer it. Will you do 22 that? 23 A. I will do that. 24 Q. If you don't hear me in my question, would you 25 ask me to repeat it for you before you try to answer? 0007 01 A. I will. 02 Q. May I ask you to do one thing for us. Please 03 speak up. I can barely hear you. And I know there's 04 an air-conditioner or something going on up here, and 05 the court reporter has to hear your words so she can 06 know what to write down. Will you speak up? 07 A. I will try. Yes, I will. Sure. 08 Q. Thank you. It's okay to nod if you just speak 09 with words so we can hear you. 10 A. Okay. But if I don't speak loudly enough, 11 please ask me to. 12 Q. I'll ask you to -- 13 A. Up the volume. 14 Q. Up the volume for us so everybody can hear. 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Okay. You understand that the deposition 17 we're taking today is just as if we were in front of 18 the Court and jury at the time the case is called to 19 trial? 20 A. Yes, I do. I understand that. 21 Q. Okay. And that the court reporter is here, 22 and she's an officer of the court, and she has given 23 you an oath to testify truthfully. And this is really 24 no different, from a truth standpoint, as to what you 25 might say in the courtroom. Do you understand that? 0008 01 A. I understand that. 02 Q. Okay. What is your date of birth? 03 A. My date of birth is 12/17/1940. 04 Q. Where were you born? 05 A. I was born in Van, V-a-n, Texas. 06 Q. Where did you graduate from college? 07 A. Baylor University. 08 Q. What year was that? 09 A. January 1963. 10 Q. What did you get your degree in? 11 A. I majored in English, with a minor in history. 12 I was certified in both history and English. 13 Q. Did you get a bachelor's degree from Baylor? 14 A. I did. 15 Q. Do you have a master's? 16 A. I do. 17 Q. When did you get your master's? 18 A. Charles, somebody my age, I'm going to have to 19 think about that. Let's see. If I became an assistant 20 principal in '84, it was immediately prior to that. I 21 cannot tell you. I'd have to think about that. I know 22 that it was prior to that, but I'm not for sure if it 23 was '83 or '84. So I'd have to tell you, it was around 24 that time frame. 25 Q. Sometime '83, '84? 0009 01 A. (Moving head up and down.) 02 Q. Is that right? 03 A. Yes, that is right. 04 Q. Thank you. What did you get your master's in? 05 A. I got my master's in counseling and guidance. 06 Charles, let me back -- mid-management came after my 07 master's, so my master's -- let's go back. 08 Q. All right. 09 A. Because I didn't know that you were going to 10 ask me this. I'm not prepared, and I haven't thought 11 about this in a long time. 12 I cannot tell you when I got my master's. It 13 was probably '77, something like that. I'm not 14 prepared to tell you that because I don't know, unless 15 you let me go look up some things, and I'd have to go 16 back to the building or go home for that. Then 17 following my master's, I got a mid-management 18 certification. 19 Q. Now, that's not a degree, though, is it? 20 That's a -- 21 A. No. 22 Q. -- certificate? 23 A. Well, for some, that can be a master's 24 degree, okay. But for me, I already had my master's. 25 And so after that, I got my mid-management 0010 01 certification. And that would be in '83 or '84. 02 Q. I'm going to ask you about your certifications 03 here in just a minute. I was going to go through your 04 degrees first -- 05 A. Okay. 06 Q. -- to be sure we have all those down. 07 A. Well, I'll tell you, do you remember all that? 08 Q. Yes. 09 A. You got some gray in your hair too. 10 Q. I do. 11 A. I don't. 12 Q. It's awful thin up top too. 13 A. If I had known you were going to ask that, I 14 could have looked that up, but I can't tell you when I 15 got my master's. 16 Q. Okay. Where did you get it from? What 17 school? 18 A. At that time, it was East Texas State 19 University. 20 Q. Okay. And do you hold any other degrees? 21 A. A bachelor's, a master's, and then a 22 mid-management certification. 23 Q. Okay. That's a certification, not a degree. 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. So I'm going to talk about that in a minute. 0011 01 A. All right. 02 Q. Do you have a Ph.D.? 03 A. I do not. 04 Q. Okay. Now, when did you receive your 05 classroom teacher's certification? 06 A. The classroom teacher's certification was in 07 January of 1963. 08 Q. Okay. What is the next certification that you 09 received? 10 A. Well, the next certification that I received 11 was in counseling and guidance. 12 Q. And that's -- when I say certification, I'm 13 talking about the certification that the Texas 14 Education Agency gives to teachers. 15 A. That's -- 16 Q. Is that -- 17 A. Counseling and guidance is a certification. 18 Q. When did you receive that? 19 A. Upon completing my master's. 20 Q. Okay. Whenever that was. 21 A. Whenever that was. 22 Q. All right. Any other certifications? You had 23 a mid-management you said? 24 A. That's it. 25 Q. Is that -- was counseling and guidance your 0012 01 mid-management? 02 A. No. It was -- my bachelor's, I was certified 03 in English and in history. The master's, I received 04 certification in counseling and guidance. And that is 05 a certification. 06 And then the next certification I received was 07 principal certification -- or I think that TEA calls 08 that a mid-management certification. 09 Q. When did you receive that? 10 A. In '83-'84. 11 Q. Any other certifications? 12 A. No other certifications. 13 Q. What professional associations are you a 14 member of? 15 A. Plano Principal's Association, American 16 Supervisors -- well, ASCD. That is a curriculum group. 17 That's it. 18 Q. Now, from time to time, do you receive 19 training as a professional educator from associations 20 or agencies? 21 A. Our District provides in-services for us. We 22 have ongoing staff development throughout the year. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. We also have summer staff development. I have 25 participated in several facets of principal evaluation 0013 01 or assessment. I'm a trainer for Principals Assessment 02 Center. 03 Q. You're a trainer for the District? 04 A. No, I'm a trainer for the state. 05 Q. For the state of Texas? 06 A. Right. 07 Q. Is there a certification for that? 08 A. No, only training. 09 Q. Okay. So you're -- is that TEA? Do you 10 work -- is that -- 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did you say the state? 13 A. You're not working for them, Charles. You 14 receive training through the Educational Service 15 Center, Region 10, which is affiliated with TEA. 16 Q. So you're a Region 10 trainer of principals 17 for the state? 18 A. Assessment Center. 19 Q. Assessment Center. 20 A. And you're obligated to follow in that 21 training to give them two days where you're in a 22 Principals Assessment Center. 23 Q. Now, what are your responsibilities as a 24 principal? 25 A. How long do we have, Charles? 0014 01 Q. I'll cut you off when -- or Mr. Crawford or I, 02 one, will tell you when we've had enough. 03 A. I'm not necessarily going to name these in 04 order. Our first responsibility as principal is to 05 make sure that we are maintaining a quality educational 06 program for our students. That's our very first 07 responsibility as a campus-level principal. But our 08 responsibilities go far beyond that. 09 Q. Go ahead. 10 A. In addition to other things that we do, we 11 monitor and evaluate teachers, we work with parents 12 through the parent leadership organization, and with 13 parents one on one. 14 We hold a child's hand when they're crying 15 because they've been hurt -- hurt because a friend said 16 something unkind to them or hurt because Mom and Dad 17 are getting a divorce. We retrieve soccer balls from 18 on top of the building. We're in charge of maintenance 19 for our buildings. 20 We nurture our staffs. We work interview 21 teams to interview and hire the very best teachers 22 available. And we take that responsibility very 23 seriously. 24 We are responsible for making sure that 25 students with special needs -- and special needs can be 0015 01 students who are in our gifted and talented program, or 02 even students who are in other programs -- our ESOL 03 program, or special education program, our PASP 04 program, Plano Academic Support Program -- are provided 05 opportunities. 06 We have off-site tutoring programs where we go 07 into communities and tutor students who come to our 08 school. We make sure the range of organizations taps 09 into opportunities for each child for social 10 development, as well as academic development. 11 When a tennis shoe inadvertently or purposely 12 gets dropped into a commode, we put our hand in and 13 pull it out. 14 Q. Would it be fair to say you're the chief 15 executive officer of the satellite school that you're 16 responsible for? 17 A. I don't think of myself in that way, Charles. 18 I think of myself that the school board and the 19 superintendent have given me a responsibility that I 20 take very seriously, but I don't think of myself in the 21 way that you've just used the term. 22 I think of myself as a team player, and we're 23 all on the team, and we're there for the child. And 24 everything we do, we measure, is this good for 25 children. So, no, I don't think of myself in that way. 0016 01 Q. How do you feel about parental involvement in 02 education? 03 A. I think if you look at my school, my campus, 04 parental involvement is very important at our school. 05 Our parent newsletter invites parents to be involved. 06 In our very first newsletter, I invited parents to be 07 involved in our school based improvement council. So 08 we consider that important. 09 I think if you look at the guidelines, it says 10 that six parents will be on your school based 11 improvement council. We have above that. We have 12 eight parents that wanted to participate, and we 13 involve them all. 14 Q. Where are you currently principal? 15 A. Wilson Middle School. 16 Q. For Plano Independent School District? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. How long have you been principal there? 19 A. Since 1985. 20 Q. How long have you been with the Plano 21 Independent School District? 22 A. Charles, I think that I was first hired in 23 '68. Then I became a mother -- let's see, my son was 24 born in '71, so I left the District for a time, and 25 then I came back. And I've been with the District -- 0017 01 I probably -- let's see. 02 So I came back with the District when my son 03 was around five, getting ready for kindergarten. And 04 I've been with the District ever since. 05 Q. Wilson Middle School has what grade level 06 children? 07 A. 6th, 7th, and 8th grade. 08 Q. At some point, was your middle school selected 09 as a pilot for connected math? 10 A. Yes, it was. 11 Q. Tell me when you first heard about connected 12 math. 13 A. When we were asked to be a pilot school. And 14 then after that, I traveled to Austin with our teachers 15 and Jim Wohlgehagen as they received training. 16 Q. Who first introduced -- or as best you can 17 recall, how did you first find out about this thing 18 called connected math? 19 A. From Jim Wohlgehagen. 20 Q. And had you ever heard of connected math 21 before that? 22 A. Prior to? 23 Q. Prior to the time Dr. Wohlgehagen said 24 something to you about it? 25 A. No, I had not. 0018 01 Q. What did Dr. Wohlgehagen tell you about 02 connected math when you first started talking to him 03 about it? 04 A. Charles, I don't know that I can tell you. 05 That's been too long ago. I can't recall what he said 06 to me. I do remember that we had the opportunity to be 07 a pilot. And I do remember that our teachers agreed to 08 give up their summer to travel to Austin to train, but 09 I can't tell you that I remember what he said to me. 10 Q. What kind of a math curriculum were you 11 teaching prior to connected math? 12 A. It's not -- Charles, it's not that CMP is that 13 different from what we were teaching before, but it's 14 in the way that it's presented. So it's not that it 15 was different in the sense that you may be thinking of, 16 but it was different in the sense of the way it's 17 presented, the problem solving was taught to students. 18 I can tell you that as a principal, when I 19 went in before to do observations in math classes, I 20 didn't see every student engaged in the learning. I've 21 been around a long time, Charles. In fact, I say I've 22 been here since dirt -- but since after today, I'll 23 make sure I get these dates as to when I've been -- but 24 I've been in Plano for a long time. And I've been an 25 administrator. And prior to that, I was a counselor. 0019 01 And prior to that, I was a teacher for a long time. 02 But as an administrator when I walked into those math 03 classrooms, not all of those students were engaged in 04 what they were doing. 05 When I walk into a classroom now, they are 06 involved in the learning. I like that, because I want 07 our kids to be successful. So it's not so much how did 08 it change, because the connection to the TEKS, it's 09 still there. But what I see for our kids -- and I can 10 only speak for Wilson kids -- is that when I walk in, 11 they're involved, they're learning, and they're 12 enjoying what they're learning. 13 I don't know if that answers your question or 14 not. And if it doesn't, then I'm not understanding 15 your question. 16 Q. I think my question was, I was trying to 17 establish when you became aware of this program called 18 connected math and what you learned when it was first 19 introduced to you? 20 A. Well, I think I tried to establish that I 21 cannot recall exactly what Dr. Wohlgehagen had said to 22 me. But I was interested enough that I agreed to get 23 in a van with many other people from Plano and ride 24 scrunched up, like this, to Austin in order to spend 25 time to learn more about CMP. 0020 01 Q. Okay. 02 A. And I was impressed. I was impressed by what 03 I heard in the presentations. Now, the principals did 04 not stay for the training. What we were there for is 05 to hear presentations, overviews. And what I heard, I 06 was impressed with. 07 Q. Wilson was one of the four schools selected to 08 do the pilot for connected math -- middle schools; is 09 that right? 10 A. You've already asked me that once. But, yes, 11 we were. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. Did you not ask me that? 14 Q. What were the other four schools that were 15 selected besides Wilson? 16 A. Haggard, Armstrong, Wilson, Bowman. Is that 17 four, Charles? One, two, three, four. 18 Q. I have written down Wilson, Haggard, 19 Armstrong, and Bowman that you gave me. 20 A. And you asked for four of those. 21 Q. Are those the schools where the pilot program 22 began, as you understand it? 23 A. That's true. 24 Q. How many middle schools are there in the 25 District? 0021 01 A. Presently? 02 Q. Let's say when the pilot program began? 03 A. I don't know. We'd have to ask, Charles. 04 There may have been nine. There is eleven now. So 05 there was probably nine, but we'd have to ask. 06 Q. So a pilot program did not get implemented 07 throughout all the school district when it started; is 08 that right? 09 A. No. 10 Q. Am I correct? 11 A. You are correct. 12 Q. All right. And your school was selected as 13 one of those schools where the pilot program was going 14 to be Implemented, and your teachers went down for this 15 special training at Lakeway with Jim; is that right? 16 A. Dr. Wohlgehagen, yes, they did. 17 Q. Jim Wohlgehagen, right? 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. I've already talked to him. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. So he's already told me a little bit about 22 that. 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. What did you understand the purpose of the 25 pilot program to be? 0022 01 A. We were not pleased with the results and the 02 gains. We were not pleased with the gains that our 03 students were making. We had that from some test 04 results, from test documentation. So we knew that we 05 needed to examine the middle school math program and 06 see if it could not be improved upon. 07 Q. Were you in agreement with that decision? 08 A. I was not in agreement with it, Charles, but I 09 would have to tell you that I leaned upon the expertise 10 of the District and the curriculum department and of 11 Jim Wohlgehagen. 12 We have some excellent expertise in our 13 district curriculum department. And so I leaned or 14 looked to them for expertise. 15 Q. So when the idea was first floated by you, you 16 didn't just jump at it and say, this looks great; would 17 that be fair? 18 A. I don't think any principal would just -- our 19 role as a principal is to examine, to evaluate, to talk 20 to others, to listen. No principal that I know of is 21 going to jump on board without examining, 22 contemplating, thinking, talking, listening. 23 Q. Now, it's my understanding that this 24 connected math program was within certain grade levels 25 of your school the first year. And it was a pilot 0023 01 program within your math curriculum; is that correct? 02 A. No. You're asking me -- break that down. Ask 03 one question at a time. 04 Q. All right. 05 A. What's the first question? 06 Q. I'm trying to hurry us along. 07 A. Don't hurry us along. 08 Q. It's my understanding -- we've talked to a lot 09 of administrators here over the last week, and I've 10 talked with Jim Wohlgehagen. I've already talked with 11 the superintendent. I've talked with the assistant 12 superintendent. It's my understanding that this pilot 13 program started off the first year in one grade? 14 A. Okay. That is true. 15 Q. And that the program was part of your math 16 curriculum for that grade? 17 A. That -- rephrase that. 18 Q. Was it part of your math curriculum? 19 A. We've already established that it was in one 20 grade. I've answered yes to that. But say that again. 21 Say it in a different way. 22 Q. Connected math is part of your math curriculum 23 for that grade, for that pilot program for that year? 24 A. The way that you said that, I understand it. 25 Q. How many other times since you've been 0024 01 principal at Wilson -- and you said you've been 02 principal since 1986 -- how many other times had your 03 school had a pilot program in your curriculum other 04 than connected math? 05 A. I do not recall our ever being a part of a 06 pilot such as this. 07 Q. So this was the first time in your career as a 08 principal at Wilson that you were a principal of a 09 school where there was a pilot program dealing with 10 curriculum; is that true? 11 A. Say it again. 12 Q. This is the first time that you were principal 13 of a school where there was a pilot program dealing 14 with curriculum? 15 A. Dealing with any curriculum or dealing with 16 the math curriculum? 17 Q. Any curriculum. 18 A. Over 15 -- almost 16 years, I can't tell you 19 that it's the only time. I'm not going to go there 20 because 15 years is a long time, Charles. 21 Q. Well, can you tell me about any other pilot 22 programs dealing with curriculum at Wilson Middle 23 School that you had other than connected math? 24 A. We were always examining the curriculum and 25 improving the curriculum. 0025 01 Q. I'm not talking about examination and 02 improvement. I'm talking about a pilot program where a 03 whole new type of teaching is brought in, like 04 connected math, something similar to that -- in any 05 curriculum at your school. Ever done that before? 06 A. Oh, goodness. We'd have to look -- I could 07 look at the way that writing -- we could talk -- we 08 could bring in the people from the curriculum 09 department in English and the way that we teach writing 10 versus the way it was taught. The way that we teach 11 the English curriculum is so different from the way 12 that it was taught. The way that almost any subject 13 area is taught now is much different. 14 Q. I don't think you're understanding my 15 question. Let me ask it again and let me clarify it 16 for you. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. I'm not asking about changes -- 19 A. Well, don't lose patience with me, Charles. 20 Q. I'm not. I'm trying to move us on. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. But you're raising your voice to me. 24 Q. Well, I want to be sure you hear my question 25 and you understand my question. 0026 01 A. I hear it, but you don't have to raise your 02 voice. 03 Q. All right. My question is -- 04 A. And you said earlier -- 05 Q. -- this a pilot program. 06 A. Wait, Charles. You said earlier that we're 07 running short of time and you want to hurry us along. 08 Q. No, I didn't say that. 09 A. I don't -- 10 Q. I said that I'm trying to move us along. And 11 all I want to know from you is, did you ever have, 12 prior to connected math -- 13 A. I'd like to take -- 14 Q. -- a pilot program? 15 A. I'm going to take a break now, okay? 16 Q. Why do you need a break? 17 A. Because you're raising your voice. 18 Q. I want you to hear my question because you 19 don't understand my question. 20 A. Charles, I'm not deaf. 21 Q. Okay. Listen -- 22 A. I'm taking a -- 23 Q. -- to my question. 24 A. No. I'm taking a break. I'm taking a break. 25 Q. If you need a break, we'll take a break. 0027 01 We're going to pick up right back here when we get 02 started, all right? 03 A. Okay. 04 Q. And my question is going to be, tell me about 05 pilot programs -- not changes in how you teach -- but 06 pilot programs like connected math prior to the time 07 this started. 08 A. Charles, please -- 09 Q. We'll take a break now. 10 A. When we come back, do not tap your pen. 11 Q. I will do whatever I want to, Ms. Sellers. 12 And I'm not trying to be disrespectful to you. If you 13 want to take a break, take a break, and we'll pick up 14 with this line of questioning in a moment. Don't 15 lecture me or ask me questions. 16 A. I'm not. 17 Q. Do you understand? 18 A. When you -- 19 Q. I'm not your pupil. 20 A. I know. But you're talking to me like I'm 21 your pupil. 22 Q. We'll take a break. And when you come back, 23 let's answer the questions and move forward. Thank 24 you. 25 A. May I be excused now? 0028 01 Q. Yes, ma'am. You want a break. We're going to 02 give you a break. 03 A. Thank you for excusing me. 04 Q. You're more than welcome. 05 (Recess from 2:30 to 2:43 p.m.) 06 Q. What school year did the pilot program for 07 CMP start at Wilson? 08 A. That would have been approximately in 1995. 09 Q. Fall of '95? 10 A. Or the fall of '96, Charles, because last 11 year -- yes. 12 Q. Which one? 13 A. '96. 14 Q. Prior to the start of the CMP program, the 15 pilot program at Wilson in the fall of 1996, had you 16 ever had any other pilot programs in curriculum at 17 Wilson since you were principal? 18 A. If you mean by pilot programs an initiative 19 such as CMP, not to my knowledge. 20 Q. Did you have parents meetings during the 21 '96-'97 school year to discuss CMP? 22 A. We did -- parent informational meetings. 23 Q. When did those parent meetings start? 24 A. You mean the time? You mean the month? 25 Q. The month. 0029 01 A. It would be somewhere near the beginning of 02 school. 03 Q. Sometime in the beginning of the fall semester 04 of '96? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. Did you have a parent meeting in -- 07 A. Charles, just a minute. Okay, go ahead. 08 Q. Did you have a parent meeting in the spring of 09 '97? 10 A. Not in the spring because we had met with the 11 parents in the fall. 12 Q. So you had no spring meeting? 13 A. No spring meeting. 14 Q. Did the CMP pilot program continue at Wilson 15 Middle School in the '97-'98 school year? 16 A. It did. 17 Q. Did you have parent meetings in the fall of 18 '97? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, at these parent meetings, were these 21 meetings conducted after the school day? 22 A. Yes, they were. 23 Q. In the evenings? 24 A. Yes, they were. 25 Q. At the school? 0030 01 A. At the school. 02 Q. And were parents invited to come to these 03 meetings? 04 A. Parents were invited to attend the meetings. 05 Q. How did you communicate to the parents the 06 date, time, and location of the parent meetings? 07 A. Through a flier that went home. 08 Q. What do you mean a flier that went home? 09 A. Well, an invitation to parents to come -- to 10 attend the parent informational meetings. 11 Q. Are you talking about a flier that the 12 children would take home in there overnight packs to 13 their parents? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So rather than mailing out a flier to all of 16 your parents at Wilson Middle School, you'd have 17 students take them home to their parents and have them 18 look at them? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Any other way you communicated the meetings? 21 A. Not that I remember. 22 Q. Did you have a meeting in the spring of '98? 23 A. Charles, I cannot recall. Do you have 24 something that says that we did? I don't recall. We 25 had -- we would have meetings in the fall, but you keep 0031 01 coming on that spring '98. If you have something that 02 you can show me, I'll look at it. 03 Q. I'm asking your recollection. You have to 04 testify as to what you recall. 05 A. I do not remember. 06 Q. All right. At some point, did you become 07 aware that there were some parents who were concerned 08 or questioned the CMP program? 09 A. At some point, I had to become aware of that. 10 Q. Okay. How did you become aware that there 11 were parents opposed to the CMP pilot program at 12 Wilson? 13 A. Probably, Charles, it would only -- I know 14 through reading letters to the editor in the newspaper. 15 Q. Okay. How else did you become aware that 16 parents were opposed to the CMP? 17 A. I do not remember. 18 Q. Did any of the parents come and talk to you 19 about it? 20 A. We had our parents informational nights, but I 21 do not recall sitting down, meeting with a parent who 22 was concerned. I do not recall that. 23 Q. At the parent informational nights, the first 24 two years, in '96 and '97, was there parental 25 opposition expressed at any of those meetings? 0032 01 A. There were parent questions, but I don't know 02 that I understand your definition of opposition. 03 Q. By the tone of the question or by the question 04 asked, did it appear to you that the parents were 05 opposed to the program or had concerns about the 06 program? 07 A. It appeared to me that Wilson parents wanted 08 more information about the program. But opposition to 09 the program, I would not call that opposition. 10 Q. Okay. Did you ever learn about a parents 11 meeting in the summer of 1998 held at a public library 12 in Plano? 13 A. Through reading about it in the paper. 14 Q. Okay. Tell me what you recall hearing about 15 that meeting in the summer -- the parents meeting in 16 the summer of 1998. 17 A. Charles, that was a newspaper report. I 18 don't -- you, know, the parents had a meeting. I don't 19 remember anything else. 20 Q. Do you recall reading that the meeting was 21 going to be on the subject of connected math? 22 A. I do. I remember that. 23 Q. And you recall that it was a parents meeting? 24 A. I recall that it was a meeting. 25 Q. Okay. And it was being held somewhere other 0033 01 than at the school? 02 A. Yes, it was being held somewhere other than a 03 school. 04 Q. Did you attend that meeting? 05 A. No, I did not. 06 Q. Did you get any information about that meeting 07 or what occurred at that meeting? 08 A. No. 09 Q. Did you ever talk to Jim Wohlgehagen about 10 that meeting? 11 A. I think that Jim attended it. 12 Q. That's the reason I'm asking if he ever told 13 you anything about it. He testified that he did attend 14 it, but I'm asking you if he ever told you anything 15 about the meeting? 16 A. I guess if I don't remember anything about the 17 meeting, then Dr. Wohlgehagen didn't talk to me about 18 the meeting. 19 Q. How about Marilyn Brooks? Do you know who she 20 is? 21 A. I know who Marilyn is. 22 Q. Did Marilyn Brooks tell you anything about the 23 parents meeting in the summer of '98? 24 A. Which is the same meeting we're talking about 25 that I -- 0034 01 Q. Yes, ma'am. 02 A. -- that I read about in the paper? 03 Q. Yes, ma'am. 04 A. I don't recall Marilyn saying anything about 05 it. 06 Q. Now, in the summer of 1998, did the parental 07 opposition to CMP begin to rises? 08 A. At my school? I can only say -- address 09 Wilson. 10 Q. I'm only asking what you know. 11 A. The parent opposition -- 12 Q. Did it begin to rise? 13 A. -- escalate? Not at Wilson. 14 Q. Did you become aware that there was a growing 15 opposition within the District to CMP by parents? 16 A. Again, there were a lot of letters to the 17 editor. 18 Q. You saw those? 19 A. I saw some of them. I did not see all of 20 them. 21 Q. Did you receive any e-mails from anybody in 22 the administration building about parental opposition 23 to CMP? 24 A. I received an e-mail from Dr. Davis. Are you 25 talking about -- well, say that to me -- maybe I'm not 0035 01 understanding. Say that to me again. 02 Q. Let me ask the question this way. Did you 03 receive an e-mail from Dr. Davis? 04 A. I did. 05 Q. About parents and CMP? 06 A. About parents -- 07 Q. Opposition -- 08 A. -- information, opposition, and for, I believe 09 the e-mail said. 10 Q. I'm going to hand you what's been marked as -- 11 I believe his name was Jim Hirsch. Do you know Jim 12 Hirsch? 13 A. I know Jim Hirsch. 14 Q. He's the person responsible for the e-mail 15 network; is that your understanding? 16 A. That's my understanding. 17 Q. This is Exhibit 72. It was identified 18 yesterday. And it's an e-mail from Jim Davis to the 19 central cluster, all principals. I want you to look at 20 Exhibit 72, and I have some questions about that. 21 A. (Witness reviews documents.) 22 Q. Would you look at the second page of 23 Exhibit 72. And there's a listing here where it says 24 recipients. Do you see that? 25 A. I see that. 0036 01 Q. And there's a category that says action. Do 02 you see that? 03 A. I see that. 04 Q. And a category that says date and time. Do 05 you see that? 06 A. I see that. 07 Q. And it has the -- is it creation? 08 A. Creation. 09 Q. -- date of Wednesday, August the 26th, 1998, 10 at 2:48 p.m. Do you see that? 11 A. I see that. 12 Q. From Jim Davis. Do you see that? 13 A. I see that. 14 Q. And then if you would look on the third page, 15 if you'll flip the page over, there is a listing that 16 has, I believe, your name -- 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- as a recipient; is that correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And it indicates a post office box in your 21 e-mail system of MAIL03.WILSO01. And I'm referring 22 right here to your post office address; is that 23 correct? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. And was that your post office address in 0037 01 August of 1998? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. And that was your name in August of 1998? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. And it indicates that this e-mail was 06 delivered to you on August the 26th at about 3:48 p.m., 07 and you opened it on the same day, August the 26th, at 08 about 3:55 p.m.; is that correct? 09 A. What it says here, it was delivered at 2:48. 10 Q. And then opened -- 11 A. At 3:55. 12 Q. -- at 3:55 on August the 26th. 13 A. Yes, I may have misunderstood you, but I 14 thought you said at 3:48, but... 15 Q. Okay. Now, does this refresh your 16 recollection about the e-mail that you got from Jim 17 Davis? 18 A. I received an e-mail similar to this. 19 Q. Tell me what you recall about Mr. Davis's 20 e-mail that you received, as best you can recall. 21 A. Charles, I can't say this is the e-mail, but I 22 can say that I received an e-mail from Dr. Davis. 23 Well, let me ask you -- this was over two years ago, so 24 has this been identified that Dr. Davis -- this has 25 been identified? 0038 01 Q. Mr. Hirsch, who is the assistant 02 superintendent, testified about this yesterday. 03 A. Okay. 04 Q. And it was marked as an exhibit in his 05 deposition. I'm not at liberty to tell you what he 06 testified about. 07 A. Okay. 08 Q. But I can tell you that it was marked during 09 his deposition, and it has represented to me to be a 10 document from the District's e-mail system. That has 11 been represented to me by the District's attorneys and 12 by the District's witnesses. Now, you recall receiving 13 an e-mail? 14 A. I do recall receiving an e-mail. 15 Q. From Dr. Davis? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And he was your immediate superintendent -- or 18 immediate supervisor. 19 A. Supervisor. 20 Q. In August of '98? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you recall receiving something from him 23 alerting you to the fact that there were people 24 distributing materials -- parents distributing 25 materials concerning connected math? 0039 01 A. Uh-huh. 02 Q. Is that right? 03 A. That's true. 04 Q. Okay. Which is the subject matter of 05 Exhibit 72, right? 06 A. Right. 07 Q. Because Exhibit 72 says, I want to alert all 08 of you with respect to the District's legal position 09 regarding people coming on to your campus with 10 petitions or materials associated with connected math 11 program. Now, that sounds like the e-mail you 12 received, doesn't it? 13 A. Yes, it does. 14 Q. You are not to allow -- I'm continuing on the 15 e-mail -- you are not to allow anyone to come on to 16 your campus inside or out to circulate a petition or 17 pass out material related to the connected math 18 program. Now, that sounded like the e-mail, doesn't 19 it? 20 A. The overall content of it, yes. 21 Q. The recent -- continuing on he says, the 22 recent flap over the connected math program has 23 prompted some people to conduct personal campaigns 24 supporting one side or the other. 25 Does that sound like what he communicated to 0040 01 you? 02 A. I do not recall that part. 03 Q. Okay. I think they will seek support wherever 04 they can find it, including schools not using the 05 program. Do you remember that part? 06 A. I do not remember that part. 07 Q. How about the part of the e-mail where he 08 says, quote, don't get caught napping on this one? Do 09 you remember that? 10 A. I remember that. 11 Q. Now, when you got this e-mail from Dr. Davis, 12 what did you think? 13 A. In what context? What do you mean? 14 Q. About this subject matter, of parents coming 15 on to your campus with petitions and materials 16 concerning the connected math program? 17 A. Well -- 18 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection to the extent it 19 misstates what the e-mail says. You can go ahead and 20 answer. 21 A. He's reminding principals of school board 22 policy. When he says District legal position, he's 23 reminding principals of school board policy. 24 And again in the second sentence, he's 25 reflecting back to the first sentence. He's still 0041 01 reflecting to school board policy. 02 I do not recall that sentence or -- that would 03 be what -- the third sentence, or the fourth sentence. 04 But basically he's reminding principals of board 05 policy. 06 Q. You do recall him telling you, don't get 07 caught napping? 08 A. Yes, Charles, I do. 09 Q. Now let me ask you about school board policy. 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. In August of 1998, what did you understand 12 school board policy to be concerning parents 13 distributing materials to other parents during an 14 evening meeting when there were no children around, no 15 students around. 16 I'm not asking you about during the school 17 day, and I'm not asking about distributing it to 18 students. All I'm asking about are at parents 19 meetings. What did you understand, at that time, 20 school board policy to be? 21 A. That had to go through the building principal 22 first. That building principal had to review that. 23 Q. Had to review materials that one parent was 24 going to distribute to another parent before they did 25 it? 0042 01 A. Well, if you look at FMA on non-school 02 materials, that would be non-school materials. 03 Q. Did you have, as a building principal in 04 August of 1998, any guidelines from the District 05 specifically stating how you were to determine what 06 could and could not be distributed? 07 A. Yes, we have regulations. 08 Q. Are there written regulations that state what 09 you can and cannot permit -- the content of what can 10 and cannot be permitted? 11 A. The content? 12 Q. Yes, ma'am. 13 A. Give me an example of -- I don't know that I 14 follow you there. Give me an example -- or can I give 15 you an example? 16 Q. Well, Dr. Davis said today earlier as an 17 example -- because you asked me for an example -- 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. -- that material harmful to students would be 20 censored or not permitted to be distributed. Now, did 21 you have any specific guidelines from the school 22 district as a building principal that told you what 23 materials the Board approved or did not approve being 24 distributed? 25 MR. CRAWFORD: I'll object to the extent 0043 01 it may misstate what Dr. Davis said. 02 A. Would you rephrase that because I'm not 03 understanding what you're saying. 04 Q. Let's suppose that a parent brings you a flier 05 that they want to distribute at a parent meeting, when 06 only parents are going to be there, before the meeting 07 starts, in the hallway outside of the room where the 08 meeting is going to occur. 09 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. Is there any written guideline of the District 11 that you're familiar with that tells you as a building 12 principal how to exercise your discretion on the 13 content of the flier? 14 A. Again, go back to FMA Legal and Local. And 15 that is the guideline. And I don't have that with me, 16 Charles -- if you have a copy of that. 17 Q. I just might. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. You have a stack of original exhibits over 20 there. And let's look at Exhibit 1, Exhibit 27. Go 21 ahead and pull out Exhibits 48, 47, and 49. 22 Let's look at FMA Local, which is Exhibit 49. 23 I believe that's the one that you referred to in answer 24 to one of my previous questions; is that correct? 25 A. Correct. 0044 01 Q. Now, the first paragraph deals with 02 school-sponsored materials. And, of course, in my 03 example of a parent bringing something to you, it isn't 04 a material that has been put together under the 05 supervision of a faculty sponsor. It's not a 06 school-sponsored material, agreed? 07 A. Agreed. 08 Q. Okay. Let's look at -- well, look at 09 non-school materials distribution. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. Okay. Now, this talks about the District's 12 classrooms during the school day are provided for the 13 limited purpose of delivering instruction to students 14 in the courses and subjects in which they are enrolled. 15 And then it says, classrooms should not be used for 16 distribution of any materials over which the school 17 does not exercise control. That's talking about during 18 the school day and distribution to students, isn't it? 19 A. That first sentence says during the school 20 day. 21 Q. Okay. Now, hallways in the school buildings 22 are provided for the limited purpose of facilitating 23 the movement of students between classes and allowing 24 access to assigned lockers. Hallways should not be 25 used for the distribution of any materials over which 0045 01 the school does not exercise control. That's, again, 02 speaking about during the school day; isn't it? 03 A. It doesn't say that. It just says hallways. 04 Q. Let's go on down. Each school campus shall 05 designate an area where materials of which the school 06 does not exercise control that have been approved for 07 distribution to the students as provided below, may be 08 made available to students or distributed to students 09 in accordance with time, place, and manner restrictions 10 developed and approved by the campus principal. Did 11 you have a designated area at Wilson? 12 A. A designated area for what, Charles? 13 Q. For that paragraph right there, the one I just 14 read. 15 A. You would not just randomly on a -- on this, 16 decide on an area. You would first look at the 17 material and decide on the area that would be most 18 appropriate. 19 Q. Well, where was your designated area for 20 materials to be distributed to students? 21 A. No -- no principal would have globally, this 22 is my designated area or -- let me -- I can't say. I 23 can only speak for myself. I wouldn't say blanketly 24 this will always be my designated area. That 25 designated area depends on your needs. It might 0046 01 change. So I couldn't really tell you that we have a 02 designated area globally for everything. It would 03 depend on the needs and the circumstances. 04 Q. The title of FMA Local is student activities, 05 publications and prior review; is that correct? 06 A. That's what this says up here. 07 Q. Okay. Let's look at the next paragraph on 08 prior review. All material over which the school does 09 not exercise editorial control -- and here's the 10 important part I'm going to be asking you questions 11 about -- that is intended for distribution to students 12 shall be submitted for prior review according to the 13 following procedures. Then it goes through some 14 procedures. 15 Now, does that paragraph talk about materials 16 intended for distribution to parents? 17 A. Charles, anything that would go into parents' 18 hands would then go into students' hands. 19 Q. Why do you say that? 20 A. Because I've been a principal for almost 16 21 years. 22 Q. So do you think it's the responsibility of the 23 school to dictate to parents what they distribute to 24 their students? 25 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, misstates her 0047 01 testimony. 02 Q. Is that what you believe? 03 A. Rephrase. 04 Q. Do you think it's your responsibility to 05 dictate to parents what they're going to distribute to 06 their students? 07 A. Well, if you look at this, non-school 08 materials being distributed without the principal's 09 approval, what can you -- you can distribute 10 everything. 11 Q. That's not my question. 12 A. Well, maybe I do not understand the question. 13 Q. Let me ask the question. Is there any section 14 of the paragraph on prior review that talks about 15 materials intended for distribution to parents? 16 MR. CRAWFORD: I'm going to object to the 17 extent that misstates what this policy says and other 18 relevant policies that may reference this policy. 19 A. Charles, if you look at FMA regulations -- 20 Q. Which exhibit are you referring to? 21 THE WITNESS: Which exhibit is this? 22 MR. CRAWFORD: No. 1. 23 A. Number 1. And if you look at distribution of 24 materials on school campuses, if you look at 25 exceptions. 0048 01 Q. Does any part of Exhibit 1, which is FMA 02 Regulation, deal specifically with distribution by one 03 parent to another parent while on school campus? 04 A. Not specifically. 05 Q. In fact, I didn't see anywhere in FMA 06 Regulation that the word parent was used. Do you? 07 A. But you would have to infer. 08 Q. I didn't ask you to infer. I'm asking, do you 09 see -- 10 A. Well -- 11 Q. -- anywhere in FMA Regulation, Exhibit No. 1, 12 that the term or word parent is used? 13 A. But who is over? 14 Q. Is it or is it not -- the term used? 15 A. No, Charles. 16 Q. It's not used, is it? All right. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. And I don't see anywhere in FMA Local, which 19 was Exhibit 49 that I was showing you -- 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. -- that it uses the term parent -- 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. -- does it? Am I correct? 24 A. You are correct. 25 Q. Are you familiar with any policy of this 0049 01 school district that has a specific policy that 02 controls the distribution of literature on the school 03 campus from one parent to another parent? 04 A. I cannot think of one at this moment. If I 05 think of one, I'll let you know. 06 Q. Just let your lawyer know. 07 A. Okay. 08 Q. I've been asking every witness that, because 09 I'm trying to find it. I haven't found it yet. 10 MR. CRAWFORD: I'll object to the 11 sidebar. 12 Q. Okay. But if you -- you don't know of one, 13 do you? 14 A. I think I've answered. I said, if I think of 15 one, I'll let you know. 16 Q. Thank you. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. Do you know of any district policy that deals 19 specifically with the distribution from one parent to 20 another parent of literature during a parent meeting 21 after school hours while on the school campus? 22 A. Rephrase that. No, don't rephrase that. Ask 23 that again, just the way you asked it. 24 Q. Let me let her just read it back to you. 25 MR. BUNDREN: Can you do that? 0050 01 Q. Listen and she'll read it back to you. 02 (Requested portion was read.) 03 A. I cannot think of one. 04 Q. As a matter of practice at Wilson for the 05 years that you've been there, you have permitted and 06 the school district has permitted outside organizations 07 to distribute literature to the students either by 08 posting it or making it available or putting it in 09 their take-home fliers. And by organizations, I want 10 to define what I mean. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Organizations such as Boy Scouts; is that 13 true? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Girl Scouts? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. YMCA? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Plano Sports Authority? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Indian Guides? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. The Classics? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. Special Olympics? 0051 01 A. Correct. 02 Q. A scouting night? 03 A. Correct. 04 Q. Dallas Symphony? 05 A. Correct. 06 Q. Dallas Orchestra? 07 A. Correct. 08 Q. Dallas Arboretum? 09 A. Correct. 10 Q. And your PTOs and PTAs? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. In fact, you've had all kinds of literature 13 distributed to students about these types of 14 organizations and registrations for sporting events and 15 extra-curriculum activities since you've been at 16 Wilson; isn't that true? 17 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, overly broad 18 and vague. 19 A. It is overly broad and vague. For example, on 20 PSA -- and I have to say PSA because that's my most 21 recent recollection. That would go down to the 22 physical education department, so -- and that would be 23 distributed there. But all sorts of -- no, Charles, I 24 don't -- we haven't had all sorts. 25 Q. Well, let's take a look at some of these 0052 01 exhibits then, and let's see what you've been having 02 distributed at Wilson and what you're not. 03 Let's start with Exhibit No. 28-A. Now, this 04 is a welcome back announcement from the Meadows PTO. 05 If this was from the Wilson PTO, would this be 06 permitted to be distributed at your school? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next one. Exhibit 29 09 is an American Youth Soccer Organization brochure. And 10 on the back of 29, there's more information on American 11 Youth Soccer, announcing a registration. Is this type 12 of material -- has it been distributed at Wilson? 13 A. Not -- not this specific one, PSA. And 14 generally the communications department forwards this. 15 In fact, they deliver this to us. So we would have 16 something from the communications department telling us 17 that this can be distributed, or something like this 18 can be distributed. 19 Q. So it may not be exactly like this one, but 20 something like this has been distributed to students at 21 Wilson; is that correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. All right. Let's look at Exhibit 30. This is 24 a Girl Scout recruitment night. This deals with 25 Meadows Elementary. If this was at Wilson and it dealt 0053 01 with Wilson Elementary, would this be something similar 02 to what you would distribute? 03 A. It would be something similar. 04 Q. Okay. Let's look at 31, Plano Baseball and 05 Plano Girls Softball Association fall sign up. Is this 06 something similar to what you've distributed before? 07 A. This would be something similar. 08 Q. Let's look at Exhibit 32. This is Plano 09 Sports Authority, 1990 fall sports registration for 10 cheerleading, in-line hockey, fall softball, 11 basketball, volleyball, drill team, and football. Is 12 this something similar to what you've distributed 13 before? 14 A. This is something similar that would come 15 through the communications department and we would 16 filter it to our physical education department. 17 Q. And then would it be made available to the 18 students? 19 A. It would be made available to the students. 20 Q. And if they wanted to pick one up at the 21 school, they could pick one up? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Could they also take one home to their 24 parents? 25 A. Yes. It's a nonprofit organization. 0054 01 Q. How about the next one, No. 33. This in 02 Indian Guides and Indian Princess, an announcement of 03 their program. Is this the type of thing that you've 04 distributed before from the school to the students? 05 A. Something like this? 06 Q. Yes, that's what I'm asking. Maybe not this 07 exact one, but something like this? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. The same type of information on it; is that 10 right? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Now, I assume that the purpose of having the 13 students pick these up and take them home is to show 14 them to their parents; is that right? 15 A. You assume correctly. 16 Q. Okay, good. Exhibit 34 is the first annual 17 punt, pass, and kick contest sponsored by the Plano 18 East Quarterback Club. Now, is this something similar 19 to what you've distributed at Wilson before? 20 A. Well, Charles, since this is sponsored by the 21 Plano East Quarterback Club, this -- we feed into Plano 22 West -- I mean, Plano Senior High, no, not this one. 23 Q. But something similar? 24 A. But if -- the Plano Quarterback Club, yes. 25 Q. Okay. As long as it was in your feeder 0055 01 system, right? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Then you'd distribute it? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. Okay. The next one is Exhibit 35. This is an 06 announcement of a Little Caesars Pizza Kits. Now, this 07 deals with Armstrong Middle School, as you can see on 08 the note on the side. But is this something similar to 09 what you might distribute at Wilson? 10 A. Who is sponsoring this? Coming Soon -- pizza 11 kits at open house -- 7th grade -- I don't see who is 12 sponsoring this. Is it over here? 13 Q. The note says Armstrong Middle School. It 14 always says at the bottom that you'll pick them up at 15 Armstrong. 16 A. Well, where is this coming out of? 17 Q. Well, is this -- I know this isn't your 18 school, but is this something similar to what you might 19 do for your PTO or PTA? 20 A. But it doesn't say PTO or PTA, so I don't 21 know. 22 Q. Have you ever had something like this go home 23 with the kids or posted somewhere in the school? 24 A. No, because -- may I finish -- because this 25 doesn't say who is in charge of this. This doesn't 0056 01 say that this is a fund-raiser by PTSA. I need more 02 information. 03 Q. Let's look at 36. This is an announcement by 04 Market Insurance Company of American student and sports 05 insurance. Have you ever seen something similar to 06 this before? 07 A. I've seen something similar to this. 08 Q. Have you posted this or made it available to 09 your students? 10 A. No, we don't post it, but we make it available 11 to our students. 12 Q. And they can pick it up and take it home? 13 A. Through the athletic department, yes. 14 Q. Of your school? 15 A. Of my school. 16 Q. Okay. So -- 17 A. And I don't know if it's this company. 18 Q. But something similar to this? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. So a flier on youth insurance for youth sports 21 would be distributed through your athletic department 22 to the students with the intention that it would be 23 taken home to the parents -- 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. -- for their review? 0057 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Okay. The next one is Exhibit 37. This is a 03 weekly publication of a PTA at Bethany? Do you have a 04 PTA at Wilson -- or a PTO? 05 A. I have a PTSA. 06 Q. PTSA. What does that stand for? 07 A. The S stands for students. 08 Q. Okay. Parent Teacher Student Association? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. Do they have a newsletter? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you distribute those newsletters? 13 A. The newsletter is mailed out by the PTSA to 14 each home of students enrolled at Wilson Middle School 15 PTSA. 16 Q. If somebody wanted to pick a copy up at the 17 school office, could they do that? 18 A. Yes, they could. 19 Q. So it's made available to them there? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Is it posted somewhere on a bulletin board? 22 A. No. 23 Q. By the way, who prints that? Who prints your 24 PTSA? 25 A. The PTSA pays to have that printed. 0058 01 Q. Okay. Exhibit 38 is a PTO-PTA fund-raiser 02 type brochure announcing subscriptions or something for 03 raising money. Is this a type of thing that you would 04 distribute out or have available at school? 05 A. No, because the Wilson PTSA, their 06 fund-raisers are through the socials. They don't do 07 that in -- the socials are their main source. I've 08 never seen anything like this. 09 Q. This is something about the Plano Star 10 Courier. Is that a newspaper? 11 A. That's a newspaper. 12 Q. Local newspaper? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Is that correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. If your PTO-PTA wanted to do a 17 fund-raiser with the Plano Star Courier, they came to 18 you and said, we want to post some information about 19 this or make this information available to parents so 20 they can participate, would you allow that to be 21 distributed through your school? 22 A. If they wanted to do a fund-raiser to support 23 the students at Wilson, I have to approve that 24 fund-raiser. But that would then -- you're not asking 25 me approval on fund-raisers. You're asking me would it 0059 01 be distributed to parents? 02 Q. Right. 03 A. Yes, it would. 04 Q. Okay. The next one, 39, is an announcement 05 concerning recycling -- paperboard recycling. Do y'all 06 participate in any kind of recycling program? 07 A. No, but the District hopefully by the end of 08 the year, if not the first of the next year, will have 09 a new recycling program, we have been told. 10 Q. Okay. Is this the type of information that 11 you would allow to be distributed down to the parents? 12 A. I'd have to read if first. Who's sponsoring 13 this? Is it a nonprofit organization? Call recycling 14 coordinator. I would investigate this further. This 15 doesn't give me enough information. 16 Q. Well, let's suppose that Exhibit 39 is not 17 sponsored by a nonprofit -- there's no nonprofit 18 corporation that's sponsoring Exhibit 39, just as an 19 example. 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. Under the policy, could it then be distributed 22 or posted or handed out? 23 A. Is that what this is, Charles? 24 Q. I'm not saying that. I'm asking as an 25 example. 0060 01 A. Okay. 02 Q. That -- 03 A. It's a -- 04 Q. If 39 was a recycling program that wasn't 05 sponsored by a nonprofit corporation and it came to you 06 and they wanted to distribute it or post it or have it 07 handed out to the students, under your District policy 08 does that make a difference? 09 A. I would review that. If I reviewed that and 10 found that that was not -- that's a part of what I do. 11 I would review that. 12 Q. Review policy, you say? 13 A. No. I would review -- you're giving me the 14 scenario if this was a money-making venture, this were 15 a company, a recycling company -- maybe I'm not 16 understanding you. 17 Q. I guess my point is, is do you have to be a 18 nonprofit in order to get your stuff distributed? 19 A. Well, I'm not there to further corporations, 20 no. Nonprofit -- 21 Q. So what's the answer? Do you have to be a 22 nonprofit? 23 A. You have to be a nonprofit organization. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. If this were a business, would I run it off 0061 01 and distribute this to students? Why would I do that? 02 Q. You're the one that enforces the policy. I'm 03 just asking. You wouldn't do that? 04 A. There would be no reason to do that. 05 Q. All right. 06 A. We're there for education, not to support 07 businesses. 08 Q. Let's look on over at Exhibit 43. Move on 09 over to 43 here real quick. This is a fire prevention 10 poster contest. Have you seen something like this 11 before? 12 A. This is more elementary. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. But, yes, I have seen something similar to 15 this. 16 Q. It appears under rules under Part B that 17 there's a middle school division, grades 6, 7, and 8. 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. You've seen something similar to this? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. You need to answer with words. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Thank you. And is this the type of thing that 24 you would distribute or hand out at school? 25 A. That's not the way that we receive this, 0062 01 Charles. The way that we receive information about a 02 fire prevention poster contest is through e-mail. And 03 when we receive it through e-mail, then we forward it 04 to the art department. But I've never received any of 05 this, this year. In fact, they've just recently 06 completed this, I believe. 07 Q. Well, how does the school communicate to the 08 students that they're invited to participate in a 09 poster contest? 10 A. Through forwarding the e-mail to the art 11 teacher. 12 Q. What is the art teacher supposed to do with 13 it? 14 A. The art teacher -- if the art -- it depends on 15 the other contests that they're involved in. If 16 they're involved in other contests at that time and 17 this is not one that they want -- they choose to be 18 involved in, then they're not involved in it. I 19 can... 20 Q. In short, you leave it up to the art teacher 21 to make a decision about whether or not to give this to 22 the kids? 23 A. I leave it up to the art department to make 24 the decision on how many contests that students can 25 become involved in. You can't have students involved 0063 01 in multiple contests. This is a worthwhile contest, 02 but there are other contests that are also worthwhile 03 too. 04 Q. Let me ask the question this way. Would 05 distribution of this flier to the students violate any 06 district policy that you know of? 07 A. No. 08 Q. Okay. Now, let's look at 44. This is an 09 announcement of some theater classes, art classes, from 10 The Classics. Have you seen something like this 11 before? It announces acting for youth, ages eight to 12 13. That's in the middle school category, isn't it? 13 A. Uh-huh. I have not seen anything like this, 14 Charles. 15 Q. Do you know of any policy that prohibit this 16 from being distributed? 17 A. No, because remember, we saw earlier The 18 Classics. 19 Q. They're one of the exceptions, right? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. Is that right? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. Okay. Let's look at 45. This is a Plano ISD 24 Six Flags ticket announcement night of some sort, 25 identified by Superintendent Otto in his deposition. 0064 01 Have you seen these before? 02 A. No, I have not. 03 Q. Have you ever distributed these at Wilson? 04 A. If I haven't seen it, I couldn't, you know, 05 make a decision on distributing it. 06 Q. Okay. 46, that's another of The Classics. 07 You don't know of a policy that prohibits that from 08 being distributed, right? 09 A. No. 10 Q. Now, what I've just shown you, that some of 11 these are examples of the types of fliers that students 12 get handed at school or made available to them at 13 school to be taken home to their parents or for them to 14 pick up, sometimes sent home with them overnight, 15 right? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. And also I think you told me earlier that for 18 instance, Exhibit No. 58, an invitation to attend a 19 math night, you used the students to carry these types 20 of communications home to their parents, didn't you? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. So when you were going to have one of your 23 math nights, you had the students carry these things 24 home to the -- in fliers to their parents for their 25 parents to see, inviting the parents to come to the 0065 01 school. That's the way you did it? 02 A. That's correct. 03 Q. And that doesn't violate district policy? 04 A. No. 05 Q. Have you ever had a parent bring you a flier 06 and ask you to approve it? 07 A. In what -- what on? 08 Q. Anything. 09 A. Not to my knowledge. Do you have something? 10 Are you -- you're talking about the whole 15 years I've 11 been principal? 12 Q. That's right. 13 A. You're talking about -- 14 Q. Have you ever had a parent bring you a flier 15 and say, hey, Ms. Sellers, would you approve this for 16 distribution? 17 A. The reason I'm smiling is, you can't 18 remember -- to my recollection, no. 19 Q. Ms. Sellers, the best you can do is your 20 recollection. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. That's all I'm asking you. 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. All right. If you recall, you recall. If you 25 don't recall, you don't recall, okay. But you don't 0066 01 ever recall a parent coming to you and saying, hey, 02 I've got a flier and asking for your approval on that; 03 is that right? 04 A. And this flier would have to do with what? 05 Q. Anything. 06 A. No, there would be no reason for me to do 07 that. Having to do with their business or -- 08 Q. I'm just asking, has a parent ever come to you 09 as the principal of the school -- 10 A. I don't recall a parent coming to me to ask me 11 to do that. 12 Q. All right. Let me ask to you look at Exhibit 13 No. 7, please. Is that your signature above the name 14 Beverly Sellers? 15 A. That is my signature. 16 Q. And Dr. Wohlgehagen's signature is over there 17 too? 18 A. That's his signature. 19 Q. Now, was this letter to parents concerning 20 connected math mailed to them, or was it distributed by 21 the students in their overnight backpacks? 22 A. Charles, it would probably be distributed to 23 the students for them to take home to their parents, 24 because mailings are very expensive. 25 Q. Okay. So -- 0067 01 A. So it would be -- 02 Q. -- your best recollection, it is? 03 A. It would be routine for us to distribute it to 04 our students to take home to their parents. 05 Q. Okay. And that -- how many households or how 06 many parents do you have at Wilson? 07 A. We have approximately 1,050 students at 08 Wilson. 09 Q. Do you know about how many parents that -- or 10 how many different households that is? Do you have any 11 idea? 12 A. No, I have no idea. 13 Q. So if you mailed out 1,000 pieces -- 1,050 14 pieces of mail, that would be a whole lot more 15 expensive than handing it out in their backpacks? 16 A. It would be quite expensive. 17 Q. Okay. Is this similar to a type of 18 communication that you would make to the parents about 19 connected math during the years that the pilot program 20 was going on? I think this one mentions the 1997-1998 21 school year, but you had some other school years. 22 A. This -- this would be similar to what we would 23 communicate to our parents. 24 Q. Okay. Let's look at Exhibit 8. This is an 25 invitation to parents to attend a 6th grade math night 0068 01 on connected math on Tuesday, August the 26th, 1997, 02 from 7:00 to 8:00 p.m. at the Wilson Middle School 03 cafeteria; is that right? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. Okay. And this is a type of a notice that you 06 did, in fact, send out to the parents for the '97-'98 07 school year on the math parents night; is that right? 08 A. This would be standard -- 09 Q. Okay. 10 A. -- as to what we would send out. 11 Q. It's pretty typical each year of what you'd 12 send out? 13 A. (Moving head up and down.) 14 Q. And does this flier go home with the students 15 to be given to their parents? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. I notice that there's a little thing at the 18 bottom where you ask them to put in the student's name 19 and say if they're going to attend or not and return 20 it; is that right? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. Now, did you intend -- you need to answer with 23 words. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. And did you intend for the students to 0069 01 bring the bottom part back to their teacher so that you 02 could find out how many parents were approximately 03 going to be there? 04 A. Well, so we could count on seating. 05 Q. Okay. Now, Exhibit No. 9, this is an 06 announcement that you sent out for '98-'99; is that 07 correct? 08 A. Well, my signature is there, Charles. So, 09 yes, this looks like what we sent home. 10 Q. This is your signature, right? 11 A. That is my signature. 12 Q. Okay, all right. And then Exhibit No. 10, 13 this is an announcement of the 6th grade Wilson math 14 night for Thursday, August the 27th, 1998; is that 15 correct? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Okay. And is that what you sent out with the 18 kids to the parents for the 1998 meeting? 19 A. This looks like what we sent out. 20 Q. Good. All right. Exhibit No. 11 -- and why 21 don't you set No. 8 aside -- No. 10, because I'm going 22 to come back to that one and I don't want to have to go 23 hunt for it again. 24 Number 11, this is a 7th and 8th grade Wilson 25 math night, September 1, 1998. Is this what you sent 0070 01 out? 02 A. Charles, this looks like it's very similar to 03 what we would sent out. But if you're asking me, is 04 this what you sent out, I cannot tell you yes or no. I 05 can tell you this looks similar to what would have sent 06 out. 07 Q. Is there anything on Exhibit No. 11 that 08 indicates to you that you did not send it out? 09 A. Well, the clues that I say it would be 10 something similar to what we would send out is that 11 Dr. Wohlgehagen was at each of our parent information 12 nights. So I look at that and I see, well, yes, our 13 guest speaker will be Dr. Jim Wohlgehagen, secondary 14 math coordinator. That's one clue. 15 The time would be another clue because we know 16 that parents are very busy. So we would try to give 17 them an hour with our staying behind to work with 18 parents if they had additional questions. So that is 19 my second clue. 20 The cafeteria is another clue. The Wilson 21 Middle School cafeteria is supposedly something that we 22 would have said because that's where we held our 23 meetings. 24 But if you're asking me, is this what we sent 25 out, I cannot tell you yes or no. I can tell you that 0071 01 Dr. Wohlgehagen attended our meetings, that we tried to 02 let the parents know that the meetings would run an 03 hour, with our meeting with parents afterwards. We 04 held them in the cafeteria, so... 05 Q. Now, look at Exhibit 11 and tell me, do you 06 deny under oath that you sent it out? 07 A. That I sent this out? 08 Q. Yes, ma'am. Do you deny that it went out 09 under oath? 10 A. Oh, I'm not trying to deny that. 11 Q. Okay. Is there anything on here that would 12 indicate to you that you did not send it out? 13 A. No, there's not. 14 Q. Okay. Let's go back to Exhibit No. 72. 15 MR. BUNDREN: Didn't I mark something 16 that's a poster like this? 17 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, you did. 18 MR. BUNDREN: What number is that? 19 MR. CRAWFORD: 74. 20 MR. BUNDREN: Okay. 21 Q. Let me hand you 72 and 74 and 10 and 50 and 11 22 and 28. Okay, great. 23 Now, Ms. Sellers, let's look at some dates on 24 these. Exhibit No. 72, which is the e-mail that we 25 talked about earlier, is dated Wednesday, August the 0072 01 26th, 1998? 02 A. Right. 03 Q. Is that right? 04 A. That's correct. 05 Q. And you had a -- Exhibit No. 10 indicates that 06 there was going to be a Wilson Middle School meeting on 07 August the 27th, 1998, which would have been the next 08 day after the e-mail; is that right? 09 A. Well, the 27th falls after the 26th. I agree 10 with that. 11 Q. Okay. And then Exhibit No. 11 indicates that 12 there's going to be a 7th and 8th grade Wilson math 13 night on September 1, 1998; is that correct? 14 A. That's what this says. 15 Q. Do you know in 1998, the fall semester of 16 1998, exactly when your parent math nights were? 17 A. That was two years ago. A lot of parent 18 nights have taken place since then. 19 Q. So the answer is, you don't know as you sit 20 here today; is that correct? 21 A. The answer is, I don't recall. 22 Q. Okay. Do you have any records of when your 23 parent math nights occurred in the fall of 1998 -- 24 A. Not with -- 25 Q. -- at Wilson? 0073 01 A. Not with me. 02 Q. Okay. Do you have any records somewhere else? 03 A. I could probably pull that. 04 Q. Where would you go to find that information? 05 A. I would first go back to school and look and 06 see if I could find it. 07 Q. In the fall of 1998, did you have two parent 08 math nights or one? 09 A. Charles, I do not recall. 10 Q. You know there was one, don't you? 11 A. Oh, yes. 12 Q. At least one? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. Now, at one of those parent math nights 15 in the fall of 1998 -- and, again, sometime in this 16 time frame of August -- late August, September -- the 17 precise date isn't as important -- you attended that 18 meeting, didn't you? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. And Jim Davis attended that meeting? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And Mr. Kirke came to that meeting? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You recall that? 25 A. Yes, I do. 0074 01 Q. Okay. And do you recall Ronni Jenkins being 02 at that meeting? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. Okay. Do you recall Mr. Kirke showing up -- 05 A. Mrs. Jenkins left before the meeting. She may 06 have come back, but she left before the meeting, right 07 before the meeting got underway. 08 Q. Okay. 09 A. She said she was going to pick up a child at 10 soccer practice, I believe. 11 Q. But you recall Mrs. Jenkins and Mr. Kirke 12 being at the school before the meeting started? 13 A. Immediately before the meeting started, I do 14 recall that. 15 Q. Let me show you Exhibit 50. 16 A. All right. 17 Q. This is a newspaper article that shows 18 Mr. Kirke holding a sign. Now, we have reprinted that 19 as Exhibit No. 74, okay. Take a moment to read Exhibit 20 No. 74. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. Do you recall Mr. Kirke having a sign with him 23 at one of those meetings at Wilson? 24 A. I do. 25 Q. Tell me what you recall about his sign. 0075 01 A. The sign was very similar. I've never -- I've 02 not seen -- I understand this was in the paper, but I 03 have not seen this -- but it was similar to this. 04 Q. Okay. So if Mr. Kirke testifies that his sign 05 carried the message that's reflected on Exhibit 74, you 06 wouldn't have any reason to disagree with that, would 07 you? 08 A. I can't see any reason to disagree with that. 09 Q. Now, did you see Mr. Kirke carry his sign into 10 the school? 11 A. No, I did not. 12 Q. Okay. Do you know what happened to 13 Mr. Kirke's sign? 14 A. That night? 15 Q. Yes, ma'am. 16 A. At the meeting? 17 Q. Yes, ma'am? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. Did someone tell Mr. Kirke to put his 20 sign down? 21 A. Someone asked Mr. Kirke to please. 22 Q. Put his sign away? 23 A. (Moving head up and down.) 24 Q. Is that correct? 25 A. That is correct. 0076 01 Q. Okay. Was that Jim Davis? 02 A. That was me. 03 Q. So you told Mr. Kirke to put his sign away? 04 A. I didn't tell him. I asked him. Mr. Kirke 05 and I -- his son was a student at our school. I felt 06 that we had a good relationship. Mr. Kirke and I had 07 talked on several occasions. I knew his son. I asked 08 Mr. Kirke to please put it down. And I asked Mr. -- we 09 have to go back to the teacher who alerted me. And the 10 teacher who alerted me said that Mr. Kirke had a 11 petition and was circulating materials. 12 So when I came out, we were having final 13 preparations. When she came to me, it was 14 approximately a quarter until 7:00. 15 Q. What time was the meeting supposed to start? 16 A. 7:00. 17 Q. Who was the teacher? 18 A. Christy Thompson. 19 Q. What did Ms. Thompson tell you, as best you 20 can recall? 21 A. That Mr. Kirke was in the cafeteria handing 22 out materials and with a petition, something of that 23 nature. I knew that Mr. Kirke had not spoken to me in 24 regards to the night, but it didn't surprise me that 25 Mr. Kirke was there. 0077 01 So when I went out, he did have a sign. They 02 were -- he and Ronni -- would you like for me to draw 03 you a diagram? 04 Q. That's probably not a bad idea. Let me get 05 you a piece of paper so you can show us where they were 06 when you saw them? 07 A. One of our teachers had told me -- 08 Q. Why don't we -- before we get into the details 09 of that, let's go ahead and get everything identified 10 on your diagram so you can then identify where you saw 11 Mr. Kirke and what you saw him doing, okay? 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. And as you draw the diagram, could you put in 14 the streets that the school is close to and then show 15 the parking lot area and then the building? 16 A. Charles, I'm not an artist. I'll do the very 17 best I can. 18 Q. Do the very best you can. I know it's not to 19 scale, too. 20 A. I wish this were more to scale. I'm going to 21 do the best I can. This is what concerned me. 22 Q. Just go ahead and finish the diagram, and then 23 I'll have some questions for you. 24 A. I'm finished. 25 Q. Oh, you have? Okay. Let me ask you, is this 0078 01 the north parking lot? 02 A. That's the north parking lot. 03 Q. Okay. Where is the front to the building, the 04 front door to the building? 05 A. Custer Road is back over here. 06 Q. Okay. I know it's not to scale, but why 07 don't you just write Custer along that edge right 08 there. Custer is actually off to that side; is that 09 right? 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. Why don't you go ahead and sign that while 12 you're doing that. 13 A. Yeah, I will. 14 Q. All right. Is this the front door? 15 A. No. This is the hallway. 16 Q. Where is the front door to the building? 17 A. Well, have you got another piece of paper? 18 Q. It's off the paper, huh? 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 Q. Okay. What is -- this is a hallway right 21 here? 22 A. This is a hallway. 23 Q. Okay. Why don't you just write hallway so 24 that we can identify that. 25 A. (Witness complies.) 0079 01 Q. Okay. And what is this right here? 02 A. This is where the parents entered. These are 03 doors. 04 Q. Okay. Why don't you show a door there 05 somewhere. 06 A. (Witness complies.) 07 Q. Is that two sets of double doors? 08 A. Right. 09 Q. Okay. Why don't you just put door out beside 10 there. 11 A. (Witness complies.) 12 Q. Okay. And then the parents would come from 13 the north parking lot through those doors? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. Why don't you draw an arrow to show the 16 way the parents would be coming in. 17 A. (Witness complies.) 18 Q. Is this a hallway right here -- 19 A. This is -- 20 Q. -- or a foyer? 21 A. -- a foyer. 22 Q. Okay. Why don't you write foyer right there. 23 A. (Witness complies.) 24 Q. And where is your cafeteria? 25 A. This. 0080 01 Q. This room right here? Why don't you write 02 cafeteria right there. 03 A. (Witness complies.) 04 Q. Now, what is this that you drew right here? 05 A. That's a table. 06 Q. Why don't you write table for that. 07 A. (Witness complies.) 08 Q. So the table was located kind of at the 09 junction of the hallway and the foyer; is that right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Are there doors that lead into the 12 cafeteria or is -- 13 A. No. 14 Q. -- it just an open space? 15 A. Open. 16 Q. Open space, okay. All right. Now, you said 17 that Christy Thompson -- 18 A. Thompson. 19 Q. -- reported to you that Mr. Kirke had some 20 materials and petitions and a sign -- or did she tell 21 you about the sign? 22 A. I don't remember her saying the sign. 23 Q. Materials and a petition? 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. Okay. And you knew who Mr. Kirke was, didn't 0081 01 you? 02 A. Sure. I knew Mr. Kirke. 03 Q. He's one of your -- he's the parent of one of 04 your children, isn't he? 05 A. Yes, he is. 06 Q. One of your students, okay. And so when she 07 told you that, what did you do? 08 A. I came to the cafeteria. And Mr. Kirke was 09 about in this area. 10 Q. Okay. Why don't you draw a circle right there 11 and put his initials so we can see it -- big enough 12 that we can see it. 13 A. (Witness complies.) 14 Q. So you've got him standing at one of the 15 corners -- 16 A. Well, you don't stand still, but approximately 17 in that area. 18 Q. Would you say that he was kind of milling 19 around the foyer in the hallway? 20 A. The parents were coming in. They were coming 21 in to the meeting. 22 Q. All right. So Mr. Kirke was standing there 23 when you saw him? 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. Now, when Christy told you what he was doing, 0082 01 did you immediately go to where he was? 02 A. I did go to Mr. Kirke. 03 Q. Immediately when she told you that? 04 A. Well, immediately would be -- you know, what 05 is your definition? I didn't stop and take care of 06 anything else. I went -- I went in a timely fashion. 07 Q. Okay. So as soon as you received the 08 information that Mr. Kirke was distributing petitions 09 and materials, you stopped what you were doing, 10 whatever it was, and went directly to where he was 11 supposed to be? 12 A. As soon as it had been reported to me. I did 13 not see Mr. Kirke. I went to Mr. Kirke and I asked him 14 to -- 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. I asked him to please not do that. 17 Q. What did you see him doing? 18 A. He had a sign. 19 Q. A poster? 20 A. We talked about the sign. 21 Q. A poster like what this picture in No. 50 22 shows? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. Was it basic poster board? 25 A. Uh-huh. 0083 01 Q. Was he holding it up? 02 A. I don't remember his holding it up. 03 Q. But he had it out? 04 A. Uh-huh. I don't remember his holding it up. 05 Q. Did he have it out where the parents could see 06 it as they came into the meeting? 07 A. I don't -- I don't -- see when he had to turn, 08 because I'm coming from this direction, I do not recall 09 that. 10 Q. You recall seeing the poster? 11 A. I recall seeing the poster. 12 Q. And you recall that the poster -- 13 A. And I recalled -- I recall that 14 Mrs. Jenkins -- I mainly recall her tone of voice, 15 Charles. 16 Q. Let me ask you about what you recall about 17 seeing Mr. Kirke with his poster. You knew he had a 18 poster because you saw it? 19 A. He had a poster. 20 Q. And the poster had something -- some message 21 or communication, something similar to Exhibit 74? 22 A. Something similar to that. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. But I can't say it was this. 25 Q. Okay. And it dealt with connected math. His 0084 01 poster -- his message on his poster dealt with the 02 subject of connected math; is that right? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. And the subject matter of that meeting that 05 night was going to be connected math too, wasn't it? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. Okay. 08 A. But no one was here. This was creating a 09 bottleneck effect for us. I felt like it was impeding, 10 in my opinion -- my professional opinion as principal 11 of this building, that it was going to impede our 12 getting our meeting underway. 13 Q. What did you -- 14 A. And so, therefore, I went to Mr. Kirke and 15 asked him to please not do this. 16 Q. Not do what? 17 A. Not hold up his sign, not to distribute, 18 according to what Christy had shared with me, 19 petitions, not to distribute materials. 20 Q. Okay. Now, those are three different things. 21 You've told me that you told him not to hold up the 22 sign; is that correct? 23 A. No, I didn't say sign to him. I just said, 24 please don't do this. 25 Q. And what he was doing was holding up the sign. 0085 01 That was one thing he was doing? 02 A. Well, I assumed that he was doing that. 03 Q. All right. 04 A. Okay. 05 Q. And he was asking people to sign petitions? 06 A. No. Remember I told you that Christy said 07 that he was. Did I see him asking people to sign 08 petitions? No, I did not tell you that. 09 Q. Did you see petitions there? 10 A. No, I cannot tell you that -- I know that I 11 had teachers report to me that materials that parents 12 were to pick up had been moved down in order for 13 Mrs. Jenkins or Mr. Kirke to put their materials down. 14 Q. On the table you're talking about? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. Okay. So -- now, my question was, did you 17 ever see any petitions? 18 A. No, but I didn't look for them. 19 Q. I'm just asking you if you saw them or not, 20 okay? 21 A. I didn't look for them. 22 Q. Did you see any other material that Mr. Kirke 23 was allegedly passing out? 24 A. I didn't look for them because my main 25 objective was to ask Mr. Kirke, please do not do this. 0086 01 Please do not create a bottleneck. 02 Q. Ms. Sellers, I'm just asking a simple 03 question. Did you or did you not see any other 04 materials Mr. Kirke was passing out? 05 A. Well, I'm trying to answer you in that I 06 didn't look for them because my main objective was to 07 ask him -- 08 Q. I didn't -- 09 A. -- to please. 10 MR. BUNDREN: Objection, nonresponsive. 11 Q. I didn't ask you what your objective was. 12 A. Oh. 13 Q. I asked you if you actually saw any other 14 materials. It's a yes or no answer, either you -- 15 A. No. 16 Q. -- did or didn't? Did not, okay. So the only 17 thing you saw was the sign; is that -- 18 A. I saw the sign. 19 Q. -- is correct? Okay. 20 A. But did I see -- I didn't look for any of 21 those other materials. 22 Q. So you didn't see the petitions and you didn't 23 see any other materials, but you saw the sign? 24 A. I saw the sign. 25 Q. And tell me as best you can what you said -- 0087 01 as best you can recall, what you said to Mr. Kirke as 02 you walked up to him. 03 A. I asked him, please, do not do this. 04 Q. How did he respond? 05 A. He thought momentarily, and he complied. 06 Q. What did he do with his sign? 07 A. To my recollection, it was put down on the 08 table, because when Mr. Kirke and I came in to the 09 cafeteria to sit down, I do not remember his having it. 10 Q. Okay. Now you say he put the sign -- this 11 poster on the table. Did he put it face up or face 12 down? 13 A. Face down. 14 Q. Did you ask him to do that? 15 A. I don't recall asking him to do that. I 16 wanted -- I don't recall asking him to do that. 17 Q. Now, why did you ask him -- as you approached 18 him, if your objective was to be sure that you had 19 ingress and egress to the meeting place, why didn't you 20 ask him just to move on up into the foyer or somewhere 21 else so it wouldn't impede traffic flow? 22 A. It's still going to impede traffic flow, 23 Charles. 24 Q. Just having somebody stand there with a sign? 25 A. Because -- yes. Well, you have -- you had a 0088 01 lot of parents. We traditionally have good turn out at 02 Wilson. So this is not -- and if it were drawn to 03 scale, this is not wide. These parents are coming in. 04 Even in here it would impede. Now, maybe outside it 05 wouldn't impede. 06 Q. Now, let me talk to you about how wide this 07 foyer is. You told me earlier there were two sets of 08 double doors; is that right? 09 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. So you had basically a walkway in and a 11 walkway out? 12 A. No, that's not the way. 13 Q. All right. Do the walls come together before 14 you get to the cafeteria or is this drawn -- not to 15 scale -- but is it this basic arrangement of the foyer? 16 The foyer is wide -- 17 A. It's not drawn to scale. 18 Q. But the foyer is wide enough -- 19 A. But parents are coming -- 20 Q. -- to have two sets of double doors, isn't 21 it? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. But parents don't come in one double door and 25 go out the other. 0089 01 Q. So are you telling me that having Mr. Kirke 02 stand against the wall holding up his sign is going to 03 impede traffic? Is that what you're telling me? 04 A. In here? 05 Q. In the foyer, yes, ma'am. 06 A. He wasn't standing there. 07 Q. Did you ask him to move to there? 08 A. No. 09 Q. You asked him not to do it. 10 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, misstates her 11 testimony. 12 A. He didn't ask to move from there. 13 Q. I'm asking you, did you -- 14 A. I asked him and he complied. I didn't 15 threaten him. I didn't instruct him. I asked him. 16 Q. Did you tell him that you didn't want him 17 standing in that area because it was going to impede 18 the traffic flow? 19 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, misstates her 20 testimony. 21 MR. BUNDREN: I asked her a question of 22 what she said. 23 Q. Did you tell him that? 24 MR. CRAWFORD: Same objection. 25 Q. Did you tell him that? 0090 01 A. I don't understand y'all's objection. 02 Q. Ignore the objections. We have to make those 03 for the record. And just try a focus on my questions 04 so we can -- 05 A. Charles, I told you what I said. The 06 conversation was not long between Mr. Kirke and myself. 07 And then we came into this area and we sat together. 08 Q. Did you -- 09 A. Mr. Kirke and I had an amiable relationship. 10 Q. I didn't ask you that question. 11 A. Okay. Well, I'm sorry. 12 Q. Okay. As you approached Mr. Kirke and you 13 gave him the request -- whatever it was that you 14 said -- did you tell him why you did not want him to do 15 that? 16 A. No, I did not tell him why. 17 Q. Did you ask him to simply move to the foyer so 18 that it would not, in your opinion, impede the traffic 19 flow? 20 A. No, nor did he ask to move to the foyer. 21 MR. BUNDREN: Objection to the last part 22 as nonresponsive to my question. 23 Q. My question was only, did you ask him to move 24 to the foyer. And the answer is, no, I did not ask him 25 to; is that correct? 0091 01 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, asked and 02 answered. 03 Q. Is that correct? 04 MR. CRAWFORD: Same objection. 05 Q. You didn't ask him to do that, did you? 06 MR. CRAWFORD: Same objection. 07 Q. You need to answer. 08 MR. CRAWFORD: Same objection. 09 Q. Did you or did you not ask Mr. Kirke to simply 10 move to the foyer? 11 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, asked and 12 answered. 13 A. I have answered that. 14 Q. Answer it. Did you or did you not -- I mean, 15 did you ask him simply to move to the foyer or not? 16 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, asked and 17 answered. 18 Q. I'm sorry. What was your answer? 19 A. It has been answered. No, I did not. 20 Q. Did you see Mrs. Jenkins there that night? 21 A. I did. 22 Q. Was she standing close to where Mr. Kirke was? 23 A. When I came out, she was standing more over 24 here. 25 Q. Why don't you identify where she was standing 0092 01 when you saw her, please. Just write Jenkins in a 02 circle or something. 03 A. About right there. 04 Q. Did you have any other conversations with 05 Mr. Kirke that night about his sign? 06 A. Not that I recall. We sat together through 07 the program, and then we got up. My role was to stay 08 in case that parents had questions of me, and Mr. Kirke 09 left. 10 MR. BUNDREN: Objection to the last part 11 of the answer as nonresponsive. 12 Q. At any time that night, did you see Mr. Kirke 13 physically attempt to hand or distribute a petition or 14 any literature to any other parent that was there? 15 A. Not while in the building. 16 Q. Did you see him attempt to do it out in the 17 parking lot? 18 A. I didn't go out in the parking lot. 19 Q. So you didn't see him at any time that night 20 trying to distribute literature to anyone or a petition 21 to anyone? 22 A. I did not see him. 23 Q. Christy Thompson reported to you that's what 24 he was doing? 25 A. Yes. 0093 01 Q. Anybody else besides Christy tell you that's 02 what Mr. Kirke was doing? 03 A. I do not recall. 04 Q. Did you feel that Mr. Kirke's attempts to 05 distribute literature and petitions that night was a 06 violation of the FMA policies we've looked at? 07 A. In my opinion, Mr. Kirke should have submitted 08 that to me for me to make a decision on that, but he 09 did not. I didn't know that he planned to be there 10 with a sign. But, yes, as I understand the board 11 policy -- as I understand the e-mail from Dr. Davis, 12 yes. 13 Q. Did you feel that his exhibition of his sign 14 to the parents in either the hallway or foyer or 15 somewhere in that area when they were coming into the 16 meeting before the meeting started, had to be 17 preapproved just like materials or petitions? 18 A. If it impedes the parents moving into where 19 the meeting was to start, that's materials. It's 20 materials. That sign was materials. 21 Q. I'm not asking about impeding. I'm only 22 asking if he stood against the wall and held his sign 23 that had this message on it that's shown by Exhibit 24 No. 74, is it your understanding of the District's 25 policy that he would have to get your approval to do 0094 01 that? 02 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, assumes facts 03 not in evidence. 04 A. If he had this sign and he was on school 05 district property, this is materials -- non-school 06 materials. 07 Q. So would he have to get your approval to hold 08 the sign before the meeting as parents came in and out? 09 A. If he were outside -- well, no, Charles, if he 10 were at the sidewalk. But if he came into the 11 building, then I would expect him to speak with me 12 first. 13 Q. Get your approval? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So you would apply the same policy to 16 Mr. Kirke's sign that he was holding as you would to 17 literature that he distributed to the parents; is that 18 true? 19 A. Yes, it is, because -- it's true because 20 it's -- parents stop, they take time to read. It is 21 literature as though you had printed it off on this 22 paper. 23 Q. So in your understanding of the District's 24 policies, which you're principal and responsible for 25 assisting and enforcing, if Mr. Kirke went to the 0095 01 parents meeting with his sign, poster board sign, and 02 he didn't hand it to anyone, he didn't give it to 03 anyone, but he held it and he was silent, that would 04 require your approval before he could do that? 05 A. Yes, it would. 06 MR. BUNDREN: Let's take a break. 07 A. Because -- okay. 08 (Recess from 4:15 to 4:45 p.m.) 09 Q. Ms. Sellers, before the break, you were doing 10 the diagram. I'm going to label your diagram as 11 Exhibit 76, Sellers 76. Is that okay? 12 A. Okay. 13 (Exhibit No. 76 marked.) 14 Q. I want to go back to -- let me see that 15 diagram, if I could, again. 16 A. Sure. 17 Q. I want to go back to Exhibit No. 72, which was 18 the e-mail from Jim Davis -- 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. -- that you told me about earlier. And then 21 also remembering the night that we talked about before 22 the break with you, Mr. Kirke, and his sign, okay. 23 Did you receive Dr. Davis's e-mail before the 24 meeting that you ran into Mr. Kirke at the school? 25 A. I did. 0096 01 Q. How many days before had you received 02 Dr. Davis's e-mail? 03 A. I can't say, but I can tell you that I 04 received it prior to the meeting. 05 Q. Okay. Prior to the meeting? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. All right. And so you weren't going to get 08 caught napping when Mr. Kirke showed up, were you? 09 A. That -- that didn't -- that didn't relate to 10 me. I mean, it didn't -- I remember that, Charles. 11 But was I fearful of my supervisor? No. 12 Q. I didn't mean to say you were fearful. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. I'm just saying that you were alert, on the 15 ball, and doing what you understood the district policy 16 to be? 17 A. Well, I understood what my supervisor was 18 directing me to do. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. I understood that. 21 Q. And it was to enforce district policy? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And he was alerting you that there were some 24 parents who were raising some controversy about 25 connected math? 0097 01 A. Well, Charles, I don't remember this in here, 02 where he's talking about -- this sentence and this 03 sentence. I said earlier, I don't recall that. 04 Q. Okay. You do recall him telling you a few 05 days before Mr. Kirke showed up, the legal position of 06 the District with respect to distribution of 07 literature? 08 A. I do recall receiving an e-mail like this when 09 he is reminding us of board policy -- or it could have 10 been that he said it, district legal position which, to 11 me, is board policy. 12 Q. Other than this e-mail that you said you got a 13 few days before Mr. Kirke showed up with his sign, did 14 you receive any other e-mails from Jim Davis about 15 distribution of literature on your campus? 16 A. I did not. 17 Q. Okay. You don't recall any others? 18 A. I don't recall. 19 Q. Okay. You only recall one? 20 A. I recall something like this, Charles. 21 Q. Like 72? 22 A. Yes, like 72. But I don't recall receiving 23 anything other than that. 24 Q. Okay. Let's move that over there. 25 (Exhibit No. 77 marked.) 0098 01 Q. Let me hand you what's been marked as 02 Exhibit 77. 03 A. Uh-huh. 04 Q. This is an affidavit filed in this case. And 05 I believe on the sixth page it has your signature. 06 A. That is my signature. 07 Q. On page 5. Now, I want to work with counsel 08 because the copy that I got of the record does not have 09 page 4, so we'll need to substitute that out. But I 10 don't think there's any dispute about what the 11 affidavit said because it was filed. 12 MR. CRAWFORD: That's fair. 13 Q. But I wanted to point out that page 4 is not 14 there, but this is your affidavit that you signed? 15 A. Well, this is my signature. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. But I've not read the contents thereof. 18 Q. All right. 19 A. Do you want me to read it? 20 Q. No, because it's filed on record with the 21 court, and I just wanted to confirm that it's your 22 affidavit, that this is your signature. 23 A. This is my signature. 24 Q. And we can work with your lawyers to be sure 25 that a record filed in court, we get a correct copy, 0099 01 okay? 02 A. Okay. 03 Q. I think we've been over most of what's in that 04 affidavit, haven't we? 05 A. Charles -- 06 Q. Do you recall? 07 A. Let me look at it just a minute. Yes, I'm 08 over 18 years old. Well, you do have a page missing. 09 Q. That's what I was telling your counsel, is 10 that's what I got in my copy when it was served on me 11 had that page missing. I'm not accusing anybody of 12 anything. It's just that we'll substitute out a 13 correct copy. I just wanted to identify it as an 14 exhibit, okay? 15 A. Okay. 16 (Exhibit No. 78 marked.) 17 Q. Ms. Sellers, let me hand you what has been 18 marked as Exhibit 78. This is a publication of the 19 Plano Independent School District called the Board of 20 Trustees. Have you seen this before? 21 A. Charles, we see so much because the district 22 has many publications. I can't say that I've seen this 23 one, but I've seen something similar to this. But I 24 can't say that I've seen this one. 25 Q. Okay. I'll refer you back over to the back 0100 01 where it says, published October 1999 by the 02 communications department. And then it's got a stamp, 03 Plano ISD on it. Do you see that? 04 A. I do. 05 Q. Okay. Now, do you agree with the statement on 06 the second page, the first printed page, which says -- 07 I'm reading upside down -- public participation and 08 open lines of communication are vital to the 09 educational success of our students. 10 A. Do I agree with that? 11 Q. Yes, ma'am. 12 A. I agree with that. 13 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you some questions 14 about the policies. So let's see if we can find 15 Exhibit 1, because I don't have it. Maybe I do have. 16 I'm going to hand you Exhibit 1, Exhibit 27. 17 Exhibit 1 is FMA Regulation. 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. Exhibit 27 is GKA Local. 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. Exhibit 49 is FMA Local. 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. Exhibit 47 is GKA Local, and Exhibit 48 is GKA 24 Legal, I believe. Okay. 25 Now, I believe earlier in your testimony, you 0101 01 told me that you believed that the policy of the 02 district that dealt with distribution of literature was 03 in the FMA? 04 A. FMA. 05 Q. FMA? 06 A. But there's also -- these tie into FMA, but 07 FMA is your primary. You would go there for your first 08 source. 09 Q. All right. 10 A. But you would also read these. 11 Q. Now, you've been a principal with the school 12 district for 15 years now? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And been at Wilson Middle School since 1985? 15 A. I've been at Wilson since 1984. 16 Q. Been a principal -- 17 A. But I've been a principal since -- 18 Q. Okay. How long were you assistant principal? 19 A. One year. 20 Q. Okay. And were you in administration prior to 21 that? 22 A. I was a counselor prior to that. 23 Q. As an assistant principal, do you have the 24 same basic duties as a principal? 25 A. No. 0102 01 Q. Okay. As an assistant principal, are you 02 responsible for enforcement of the District's policies 03 at your school? 04 A. As assistant principal? 05 Q. Yes, ma'am. 06 A. Yes, you are. 07 Q. And as principal, are you responsible for 08 enforcing the District's policies? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. To enforce those policies, you have to be 11 familiar with them, don't you? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Prior to the time that the policies were put 14 on the Web site, did you have hard copies of the 15 policies in your office? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Since you have been principal at Wilson Middle 18 School, do you know if the District has changed any of 19 its policies concerning distribution of literature on 20 school campuses? 21 A. They've updated. But have they changed -- 22 since I've been principal? 23 Q. Yes, ma'am. 24 A. Since I've been principal, it's changed but 25 not drastically. 0103 01 Q. How has it changed? 02 A. This is more definitive. Prior review is more 03 definitive where -- 04 Q. And you're talking about Exhibit 49? 05 A. Yes. Where before it was interwoven into the 06 board policy, and in an indirect way. Would you like 07 for me to give an example of that? 08 Q. That's not necessary right now. We may come 09 back to that later. In the 15 years you have been 10 principal at Wilson Middle School, have you ever -- 11 except for Mr. Kirke, the situation of the connected 12 math -- have you ever had occasion to ever instruct a 13 parent not to distribute literature on your campus? 14 A. Not that I recall. I don't recall any. 15 Q. All right. Now, I want to focus in on the 16 narrow issue of what we're talking about in this case, 17 which is -- we're not talking about distribution to 18 students. I'm talking about distribution from parent 19 to parent. You understand that? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. Okay. And I'm talking about distribution 22 occurring not during the school day, not while the kids 23 are there, but at a parent meeting that's been called 24 by the school district after school hours, but at the 25 school property, okay. You understand that? 0104 01 A. I understand. 02 Q. Now, I'd like for you to look at the policies 03 that you have in front of you and tell me, first of 04 all, can you find a policy -- that's any of these 05 exhibits -- that deals specifically with the situation 06 of our case, which is a parent-to-parent distribution 07 at a parent meeting after school in the cafeteria or in 08 the school building? 09 MR. CRAWFORD: I'm going to object on two 10 bases. First, to the extent it requires the witness to 11 make a legal conclusion. Secondly, it's compound. 12 Q. Do you understand my question? 13 A. It's a lengthy question, so I would appreciate 14 you breaking it down. 15 Q. Okay. Same situation that we had the night 16 Mr. Kirke was there. There was a parent meeting. It 17 was called by the school. It was at the school 18 property. Parents were coming to the meeting. 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 Q. Mr. Kirke was there and he had some 21 literature, according to Christy, and he also had a 22 sign, okay. 23 Now, I'd like for you to show me in the 24 district policies what policy deals in that situation 25 with parent-to-parent distribution of literature and 0105 01 materials? 02 A. There's one other exhibit that I'd like for 03 you to have out here, and that's Dr. Davis's e-mail. 04 Q. I think that was Exhibit 72. Let's have that 05 out too. 06 A. Because I would have to know -- 07 Q. Let's move these out of your way. Okay. 08 We've got -- in front of you right now is Exhibit 72, 09 which is Dr. Davis's e-mail? 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. Exhibit 49, which is the FMA Local? 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. Is that correct? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. Exhibit 48, which is GKA legal? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. Exhibit 47, which is GKA Local, and then 18 Exhibit 27, which is also a GKA Local, and then Exhibit 19 No. 1, one which is FMA Regulation, okay? 20 A. Okay. Charles, may I have a pencil? 21 Q. I don't have one, but -- 22 A. Well, I hate to mark on -- 23 Q. You can't mark on the originals, but -- 24 MR. CRAWFORD: Here's on. 25 MR. BUNDREN: Okay. 0106 01 Q. If you want to, just take them one at a time 02 and you can tell us if you've found anything as you go 03 through. 04 A. Okay. 05 Q. Did you find anything in Exhibit 1? 06 A. Not according to the question that you asked 07 me. 08 Q. Fine. Let's set that over here. Did you find 09 anything in Exhibit 27? 10 A. In this one? 11 Q. Exhibit 27, GKA Local. 12 A. When you read distribution of publications -- 13 well, I see in that portion of GKA Local whereby the 14 principal's authority. It says persons or groups not 15 associated with the school unless they have received 16 permission in accordance with FMA Local. So we're 17 going to keep this one here. 18 Q. Keep that one there. Keep 27 there. But 19 before you leave it, is there anything in GKA Local 20 that you see that defines persons or defines groups or 21 defines not associated with the school? 22 A. I do not see a definition of that. 23 Q. Okay. Why don't you keep that one since 24 there's some reference to it there. 25 A. Okay. (Witness reviews documents.) Charles, 0107 01 this is really a poor copy. 02 Q. It's the best I got. 03 A. It's straining my eyes. The best you've got. 04 You should ask the District for a better copy. 05 Q. I have. 06 MR. CRAWFORD: The District is working on 07 it. 08 MR. BUNDREN: Mr. Crawford promises me 09 one. 10 MR. CRAWFORD: I have. And it's on the 11 record, and I'll get it to you. 12 A. (Witness reviews documents.) 13 Q. Are you ready? 14 A. (Moving head up and down.) 15 Q. All right. You've had a chance to review the 16 policies in all the exhibits that were before you. 17 My question is, are there any policies that 18 specifically refer to parent-to-parent distribution of 19 materials that you've been able to find? 20 A. The policy uses the term distributed by 21 persons or groups not associated with the school. 22 Q. And that's GKA Local? 23 A. Uh-huh. It says it in GKA Local, and it says 24 it -- is this Legal? See -- oh, this says Local too. 25 Q. I think Exhibits 27 and 47 are the same. 0108 01 There's a different date of issue. This date of issue 02 is 4/29/99 on Exhibit 47, and the date of issue on 03 Exhibit 27 is 2/17/97. And I'm not -- I think the 04 wording is the same. I think it's just a different 05 copy of the same policy, is my understanding. 06 A. You may be right. 07 Q. Okay. So whichever one we use, it doesn't 08 matter to me. But what you're -- 09 A. Okay. 10 Q. -- referring to is on GKA Local, and it's the 11 paragraph, distribution of publications? 12 A. Distribution of -- oh, all right. 13 Q. Is that correct? 14 A. Distribution of publications, that's correct. 15 Q. All right. So that paragraph is the only 16 paragraph that you found which relates to distribution 17 of publications by groups or persons? 18 A. Let me look back at this, Charles. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. In GKA Local, in this second paragraph, it 21 reads, accordingly this policy promotes mutual respect. 22 And it goes on and it names parents among district 23 employees, parents, and the public. So there was -- 24 Q. Is that paragraph on the first page of 25 Exhibit 47 -- and I think it's the second full 0109 01 paragraph; is that right? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Does that paragraph restrict the right of 04 parents to distribute materials to other parents? 05 A. If it would -- if there would not be orderly 06 conduct, it could be. The way I interpret the policy, 07 Charles, if there was not mutual respect, orderly 08 conduct, then it could work into this portion of the 09 policy. But the main portion that I see is what we 10 talked about a few minutes ago. 11 Q. Let's go back to your statement about orderly 12 conduct for a moment. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. Okay. Are you saying that the District's 15 policy of promoting orderly conduct would prohibit 16 parent-to-parent distribution of literature at a 17 parents meeting? 18 A. If the distribution of that literature was 19 going to infringe upon mutual respect -- if it impeded 20 this -- maybe I don't understand your question -- but 21 if, Charles, there were two groups handing out 22 literature and they were in disagreement with one 23 another, then there certainly wouldn't be -- there is 24 at least the propensity that there would not be mutual 25 respect. And there would be the propensity that there 0110 01 will not be orderly conduct. 02 Q. So the language in Exhibit 47 on GKA Local 03 which states, quote, accordingly this policy promotes 04 mutual respect, civility, and orderly conduct among 05 district employees, parents, and the public, end of 06 quote. You think that language in GKA Local could be 07 used to prohibit parent-to-parent distribution of 08 literature on your campus? 09 A. No, not that by itself. But these are the two 10 that I would weigh more heavily on here, but I could 11 see where this would be -- kind of like if you had an 12 outline, this could be your (A), (B). This could be 13 support here. There has to be mutual respect there. I 14 could see where that could work in, but I would -- if 15 you ask me what's your -- what is your primary, it 16 would be this. 17 Q. Okay. Now, when you say "this," it's not 18 going to show up on the record. 19 A. I'm sorry. 20 Q. So I have to identify what you're referring 21 to. 22 A. Distribution of publications. 23 Q. Okay. The last -- 24 A. It would be the language of distribution of 25 publications. 0111 01 Q. All right. Now, let's go back to the one I 02 just read to you -- 03 A. Okay. 04 Q. -- on orderly conduct. Do you think that that 05 language in the District's policy standing alone, 06 without reference to any other part of the policies, 07 allows you to stop parent-to-parent distribution of 08 literature? 09 A. No. I understood -- 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. -- the question -- 12 Q. All right. 13 A. -- to find anything in there with parents. 14 Q. Okay. My question -- my initial question was 15 anything that inhibits parent-to-parent distribution of 16 literature. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. Okay. And this front page doesn't talk about 19 that, does it? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. So the only part of the policies that 22 you found which concern distribution of literature 23 while at school is the paragraph, distribution of 24 publications, which is part of GKA Local; is that 25 right? 0112 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Okay. Now, I think we've already established 03 that you don't have a definition in the policy of 04 persons, for this policy, right? 05 A. That's true. 06 Q. And you don't have a definition in the policy 07 of what it means to be not associated with the school; 08 is that true? 09 A. That is true. 10 Q. Yet the school district, in all of its 11 publications and what the teachers tell the parents is, 12 is that we are partners in educating your children; 13 isn't that true? 14 A. You are partners in the sense that parents are 15 an integral part -- 16 Q. Of the education process? 17 A. Right. But that is not my interpretation of 18 this portion of the policy. 19 Q. How do you interpret not associated with the 20 school? 21 A. Well, groups who would be associated with the 22 school -- distributed by persons or groups not 23 associated with the school. Associated with -- I can 24 define it better if I say associated with the school. 25 An example of associated with the school would 0113 01 be employees of the District.