0001 01 IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS 01 FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT 02 02 03 CELIA J. CHIU; DENISE BROWN; * 03 VERONICA C. JENKINS; DENISE * 04 KIRKE; ALFRED G. KIRKE; AND * 04 KENNETH R. JOHNSON * 05 * 05 Plaintiffs/Appellees, * 06 * 06 VS. * NO. 00-40613 07 * 07 PLANO INDEPENDENT SCHOOL * 08 DISTRICT, ET AL. * 08 * 09 Defendants, * 09 * 10 JAMES DAVIS, DR., PISD CENTRAL * 10 CLUSTER AREA ASSISTANT * 11 SUPERINTENDENT; MARILYN BROOKS, * 11 ASSOCIATE SUPERINTENDENT FOR * 12 CURRICULUM AND INSTRUCTIONS; * 12 JAMES WOHLGEHAGEN, DR.; * 13 ROXANNE BURLESON, PRINCIPAL * 13 HAGGARD MIDDLE SCHOOL; CORKY * 14 CRISWELL, PRINCIPAL HENDRICK * 14 MIDDLE SCHOOL; BEVERLY SELLERS, * 15 PRINCIPAL WILSON MIDDLE SCHOOL, * 15 * 16 Defendants/Appellants. * 16 17 18 19 ******************************************** 20 ORAL DEPOSITION OF 21 DR. DOUGLAS OTTO 22 SEPTEMBER 28, 2000 23 ******************************************** 24 25 0002 01 ORAL DEPOSITION OF DR. DOUGLAS OTTO, produced 02 as a witness at the instance of the Plaintiffs, and 03 duly sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered 04 cause on the 28th day of September, 2000, from 05 1:34 p.m. to 5:28 p.m., before Sunny Schaen, a CSR in 06 and for the State of Texas, reported stenographically, 07 at the offices of Abernathy Roeder Boyd & Joplin, P.C., 08 1700 Redbud Boulevard, Suite 300, McKinney, Texas 09 75070-1210, pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil 10 Procedure and the provision stated on the record. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0003 01 A P P E A R A N C E S 02 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 02 Mr. William Charles Bundren 03 Attorney at Law 03 P. O. Box 702647 04 Dallas, Texas 75370 04 (214) 630-3555 05 05 06 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: 06 Mr. Charles J. Crawford 07 ABERNATHY ROEDER BOYD & JOPLIN, P.C. 07 1700 Redbud Boulevard 08 Suite 300 08 P.O. Box 1210 09 McKinney, Texas 75070-1210 09 (214) 544-4000 10 10 11 ALSO PRESENT: Ms. Ronni Jenkins 11 Mr. Kenneth R. Johnson 12 Mr. Alfred Kirke 12 13 13 14 14 15 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 0004 01 I N D E X 01 02 WITNESS PAGE 02 DR. DOUGLAS OTTO 03 03 EXAMINATION 04 BY: MR. BUNDREN 7 04 05 05 06 EXHIBITS INDEX 06 07 EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED 07 08 26 FNG (Local) Student Rights and 51 08 Responsibilities: Student and 09 Parent Complaints 09 10 27 GKA (Local) Community Relations: 52 10 Conduct on School Premises 11 11 28 Petition for the Addition of a 66 12 Specific Academic 6th Grade - Math 12 Class, Armstrong Middle School, 13 Plano Independent School District 13 14 28-A Flier from Meadows PTO 144 14 15 29 Flier from American Youth Soccer 68 15 Organization 16 16 30 Flier from Girl Scout Recruitment 68 17 Night 17 18 31 Flier from Plano Baseball 69 18 Association & Plano Girls Softball 19 Association 19 20 32 Flier from Plano Sports Authority 70 20 21 33 Flier from Indian Guides and Indian 70 21 Princesses 22 22 34 Flier for 1st Annual Punt, Pass, Kick 71 23 Sponsored by the Plano East Quarterback 23 Club 24 24 35 Flier for Little Caesars Pizza Kits 71 25 25 0005 01 EXHIBITS INDEX (continued) 01 02 EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED 02 03 36 Flier on Insurance Coverage 71 03 Underwritten by Markel Insurance 04 Company 04 05 37 August 16, 1999, Issue of The Bunch 71 05 Bits, A Weekly Publication of the 06 Bethany PTA 06 07 38 Flier from Plano Star Courier for 76 07 PTO-PTA Fund-Raiser 08 08 39 Flier for Paperboard Recycling 76 09 09 40 Flier Introducing the Bethany Bye 76 10 Lines 10 11 41 Flier from Bethany Elementary with 76 11 Order Form for Spirit Wear 12 12 42 Flier for Bethany Family Swim Night 76 13 13 43 Flier for Fire Prevention Poster 76 14 Contest 14 15 44 Flier for The Classics 76 15 16 45 Flier for Six Flags Fright Fest 76 16 17 46 Flier for The Classics 76 17 18 47 GKA (Local) Community Relations: 88 18 Conduct on School Premises 19 19 48 GKA (Legal) Community Relations: 89 20 Conduct on School Premises 20 21 49 FMA (Local) Student Activities: 95 21 Publications and Prior Review 22 22 50 September 5, 1998, Newspaper Article 103 23 from the Plano Star Courier 23 Re: Connected Math 24 24 51 Level 2 Complaint of Kenneth Johnson, 118 25 et al. 25 0006 01 EXHIBITS INDEX (continued) 01 02 EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED 02 03 52 February 2, 1999, letter to Kenneth 119 03 and Melissa Johnson, Steve and Ronni 04 Jenkins, Donald and Martha Mills, 04 Richard and Sally Smith, Al and Denise 05 Kirke, Timothy Soh, Susan Sarhady from 05 Douglas Otto 06 Re: Level 2 Complaint 06 07 53 Level 3 Complaint of Kenneth Johnson, 130 07 et al. 08 08 54 Administrative Complaint of Kenneth 131 09 and Melissa Johnson, et al. 09 10 55 July 27, 1999, letter to Douglas Otto 132 10 from Allan Parker, Jr., 11 Re: Parental Request for Traditional 11 Math Class 12 12 56 August 2, 1999, letter to J. Timothy 134 13 Brightman from Allan Parker, Jr., 13 Re: Parental Request for Traditional 14 Math Class 14 15 57 October 28, 1999, letter to Jerry 136 15 Madden, State Representative, from 16 Douglas Otto 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 0007 01 P R O C E E D I N G S 02 REPORTER'S NOTE: The following was stated on the 03 record in the deposition of Marilyn Brooks, and by 04 agreement of all parties will also apply for this 05 deposition. 06 * * * * * * 07 MR. BUNDREN: Do you want to take this 08 under the Rules? 09 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes. 10 * * * * * * 11 DR. DOUGLAS OTTO, 12 having being first duly sworn, testified as follows: 13 EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. BUNDREN: 15 Q. Would you state your name, please. 16 A. Douglas Otto. 17 Q. Dr. Otto, how are you employed? 18 A. I'm superintendent of schools for the Plano 19 Independent School District. 20 Q. How long have you been in that position? 21 A. I'm in my sixth year. 22 Q. My name is Charles Bundren. I'm an attorney. 23 I represent the Plaintiffs in the lawsuit that's been 24 filed against the District and some other individuals. 25 You're aware of that, are you not? 0008 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. I'd like to have an agreement with you today 03 that while we take your deposition that if you don't 04 hear my question, that you would ask me to repeat it 05 before you try to answer it. I'll do that for you. 06 If you don't understand it, please ask me to 07 clarify it because we're going to rely upon your 08 responses. Do you understand that? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Have you ever been deposed before? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How many times? 13 A. Twice. 14 Q. When was the last deposition you gave? 15 A. The last one I gave would have been sometime 16 in the late '80s. I can't remember the exact date. 17 Q. What was the subject matter of that 18 litigation? 19 A. A school district I was superintendent of at 20 the time was involved in a lawsuit. 21 Q. Involving what? 22 A. A student injury. 23 Q. Personal injury? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Slip and fall? 0009 01 A. It was an injury on a football field. 02 Q. All right. When was the other time you were 03 deposed? 04 A. When I went through a divorce. 05 Q. Have you ever testified live in court before? 06 A. Yes, I have. 07 Q. Related to school matters? 08 A. No. 09 Q. So the only time you've given testimony under 10 oath on school matters is the other deposition on the 11 football injury, plus today? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Is that correct? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. All right. You understand that this 16 deposition will be transcribed and you'll have a chance 17 to review it and if you make any changes to it after 18 you've given your answers here today, then I'm entitled 19 to call that to the jury's attention? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you understand that this deposition is 22 under oath and it's the same as if you were before the 23 court and jury and we were up in Sherman in trial? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. I'm going to get a little bit of background 0010 01 information on you concerning your background and so 02 forth to try to find out what your experience level is. 03 Would you tell me when you first got into 04 public education. 05 A. Yes, as a teacher in the fall of 1972. 06 Q. Where did you graduate from college? 07 A. Illinois State University. 08 Q. What year was that? 09 A. Bachelor's degree in 1971. 10 Q. Do you have a master's? 11 A. Yes, sir, I do. 12 Q. Where did you receive your master's? 13 A. Illinois State University. 14 Q. What year? 15 A. 1974. 16 Q. Do you have a doctorate? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. When did you receive your doctorate? 19 A. 1978. 20 Q. What university? 21 A. At Illinois State University. 22 Q. Were all your degrees in education? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. What did you write your dissertation on? 25 A. Equity Implications of Selected Wealth 0011 01 Variables in the Illinois Grant-in-Aid Formula. 02 Q. Was it published? 03 A. No. 04 Q. Have you ever published any works in public 05 education? 06 A. Yes, I have. 07 Q. What have you published? 08 A. Journal articles. 09 Q. Dealing with what subject matter? 10 A. One article was on school districts providing 11 childcare services for employees. I jointly published 12 another article -- two other articles on training of 13 principals and staff development of principals. 14 I had an article published on superintendent 15 teaching in the university. And I had an article 16 published on the changes that were made in the Illinois 17 finance formula back when I was a superintendent in 18 Illinois, so that would have been several years ago. 19 Q. Any other publications? 20 A. None that I recall. 21 Q. What's your date of birth? 22 A. July 24, 1949. 23 Q. Where were you born? 24 A. Bloomington, Illinois. 25 Q. What is your social security number? 0012 01 A. ***-**-****. 02 Q. And how about your Texas driver's license? 03 A. The number? 04 Q. Yes, if you don't mind. 05 A. Yes, sir. It is *********. 06 Q. Have you ever been convicted of a crime? 07 A. No, sir. 08 Q. How long were you in public education in 09 Illinois? 10 A. Until June of 1984. 11 Q. What positions did you hold in public 12 education in Illinois? 13 A. Teacher, assistant high school principal, high 14 school principal, and superintendent. 15 Q. What school district were you the 16 superintendent of? 17 A. It's called Rockridge -- one word, 18 Rockridge -- Community Unit District. 19 Q. What city was that in? 20 A. Taylor Ridge, Illinois. 21 Q. What years were you the superintendent? 22 A. 1978 to 1981. 23 Q. When you left that position as superintendent 24 of that school, where did you go to work? 25 A. I went to the work for the North Scott 0013 01 Community School District. 02 Q. And what position did you take there? 03 A. Superintendent. 04 Q. Is that in Illinois? 05 A. No, sir. It's in Eldridge, Iowa. 06 Q. How many years were you superintendent there? 07 A. Three years. 08 Q. That takes us up to 1984? 09 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. Where did you go to work then? 11 A. No. No, I -- it takes us up to '87. I worked 12 in Illinois through '84. I'm sorry. I was 13 superintendent in Illinois from '81 to '84. I'm sorry. 14 Q. Okay. At Rockridge? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Okay. And then in 1984 you went to Iowa and 17 you were there until 19 -- 18 A. '87. 19 Q. All right. Where did you go to work in 1987? 20 A. The Warren Township School District. 21 Q. Warren? 22 A. Warren, W-a-r-r-e-n. It's in Indianapolis. 23 Q. And what position was it there? 24 A. Superintendent. 25 Q. How long were you in that position? 0014 01 A. Three and a half years. 02 Q. Where did you go to work then? 03 A. The Anoka-Hennepin High -- Anoka, A-n-o-k-a, 04 hyphen, H-e-n-n-e-p-i-n -- Anoka-Hennepin School 05 District. 06 Q. Where is that located? 07 A. That's in Minneapolis. 08 Q. What position did you take there? 09 A. Superintendent. 10 Q. And what years were you there? 11 A. January of '91 until -- through June of '95. 12 Q. Where did you go to work in June of '95? 13 A. Plano Independent School District. 14 Q. What position did you take in June of '95? 15 A. Actually it's July. I worked through June and 16 then started in July -- superintendent. 17 Q. And you've been superintendent of the Plano 18 Independent School District since July of 1995? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. What are your duties and responsibilities as 21 superintendent of the Plano Independent School 22 District? 23 A. To organize the District administratively, 24 work for the school board, elected officials in the 25 District, and to carry out the policies of the school 0015 01 board, to make sure that all of the day-to-day 02 activities are taken care of through the organization 03 and the District, and to oversee all of the operations. 04 Q. Are you the chief executive officer of the 05 Plano Independent School District? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. You're the highest ranking paid employee? 08 A. Yes, sir. 09 Q. And everyone reports through you to the Board? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you make recommendations to the Board of 12 Trustees? 13 A. Yes, I do. 14 Q. And have overall responsibility for 15 supervision of the employees of the District? 16 A. Yes, through delegation of duties, but yes. 17 Q. But ultimately the buck stops with you? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You have overall responsibility for discipline 20 of employees who violate school district policies? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Maybe not the initial level of discipline, but 23 at least you are the person responsible for being sure 24 that's done? 25 A. Yes. 0016 01 Q. Okay. And you have a disciplinary procedure 02 for employees and administrators who violate policy, 03 don't you? 04 A. Yes, we do. 05 Q. Okay. If an employee violates a policy of the 06 school district as adopted by the school board, you 07 have a procedure by which that employee can be 08 reprimanded or disciplined for that violation? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you're ultimately responsible for being 11 sure that's taken and carried out? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Okay. Do you have budgetary responsibilities? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Policy responsibilities? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Overall responsibilities to ensure that the 18 policies comply with the law? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. With advice and consent from the District 21 lawyers? 22 A. Yes, and the person who has been delegated the 23 duties to make sure policies are up to date and 24 current, yes. 25 Q. Okay. Because from time to time, you know 0017 01 that policies have to change, don't they? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. And from time to time it's necessary that the 04 school district makes sure that their policies comply 05 with the law at that time, don't they? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. And over this course of experience that you've 08 had over all these years as a superintendent, you've 09 gained a great deal of knowledge about how the law 10 applies to school district policies nationwide, haven't 11 you? 12 A. Well, I don't know what you characterize as a 13 great deal but, yes, obviously I have knowledge of how 14 that works. 15 Q. Well, you obviously know that students are 16 allowed to wear black armbands to protest wars, under 17 Tinker? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You're aware of that. You've been taught 20 that. You know that. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You know that students don't shed their First 23 Amendment Constitutional rights when they cross the 24 school gate, don't you? 25 A. That was in Tinker, yes. 0018 01 Q. Okay. And you've read the Hazelwood case, 02 the Kuhlmeier case. You're aware of the newspaper 03 The Spectrum. You're aware of what is and is not 04 permitted in a school-published publication, aren't 05 you? 06 A. I couldn't quote the law verbatim. I'm not an 07 expert but, yes, I'm aware that those were court 08 decisions. 09 Q. And you're aware that there are certain types 10 of forums in which free speech cannot be hindered, 11 aren't you? 12 A. Right, yes. 13 Q. Okay. And you're aware that students have 14 certain free speech rights? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You're aware teachers have certain free speech 17 rights? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you're aware that parents have certain 20 free speech rights? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. And it's your duty and obligation to be 23 sure that your employees -- principals, 24 superintendents, and those who report to you -- comply 25 with the law, isn't it? 0019 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. The ultimate responsibility rests with you? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. And then you report to the Board? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. Okay. In your history of being a 07 superintendent with the Plano Independent School 08 District, have you ever disciplined an administrator 09 for violating a First Amendment right of a citizen? 10 A. I can't recall any time. 11 Q. Have you ever disciplined a teacher or are you 12 aware of a teacher being disciplined for violating a 13 First Amendment right of a citizen? 14 A. I can't recall. I don't recall any time over 15 a First Amendment right. 16 Q. You do recall from time to time that there is 17 disciplinary action against teachers and 18 administrators, don't you? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And the purpose of disciplinary action is to 21 try to give them knowledge about their violation of a 22 policy so that they don't do it again and to be sure 23 that the unlawful conduct has been corrected? 24 A. If a policy had been violated in any reprimand 25 situation, yes, that would be the procedure. 0020 01 Q. And you have, obviously, policies on your 02 procedures for reprimanding administrators and teachers 03 and assistant superintendent and other employees of the 04 District, don't you? 05 A. Yes, there are procedures. 06 Q. What certifications do you have for public 07 education from the TEA? 08 A. Superintendent's certificate. 09 Q. When did you receive your superintendent's 10 certificate? 11 A. When I first came to Texas, I received a 12 temporary permit in 1995, and then it became a 13 permanent permit in 1996. 14 Q. Within the confines of your experience -- and 15 I assume that in other states that you have also 16 received certificates as a teacher, a mid-school -- 17 secondary school principal, as your career has 18 advanced; is that correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do Illinois and Iowa have similar 21 certification programs for public school teachers? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. And you've received those 24 certifications commensurate with your level at that 25 time? 0021 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Without going into all the detail of every 03 certificate that you have, Doctor, can you tell us 04 about how many different public education certificates 05 you currently hold from various states? 06 A. Well, in the course of my career, I had to 07 obtain the proper and appropriate certifications. But, 08 now, I did not keep them current. So right now I have 09 the superintendent's endorsement here in Texas. 10 Q. Okay. And as your career advanced, in order 11 to get those certifications from the different state 12 agencies and in order to keep your certifications 13 current, you were required to go through education -- 14 continuing education as a professional educator, 15 weren't you? 16 A. No, I was not. 17 Q. Do you do any current -- or every year are you 18 required under the TEA rules to go through some type of 19 training to keep your certificate current? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Do you do any training to keep your 22 certificate current? 23 A. Yes, I do. 24 Q. Do you attend Texas Association of School 25 Board meetings? 0022 01 A. Yes, I do. 02 Q. And that's part of your education, isn't it? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. Okay. It's to find out what the changes are 05 that need to be applied to your District, to learn 06 about new ideas, to learn about any changes in the law; 07 is that correct? 08 A. From time to time, those are some of the 09 meetings I go to, yes. 10 Q. How many hours a year do you think you 11 probably spend getting training outside of the District 12 on how to better perform your job as a 13 superintendent -- professional education training is 14 what I'm asking about? 15 A. Yeah. I would say 40. 16 Q. And where do you receive -- just generally, 17 where do you receive these 40 hours of training outside 18 of the District that allows you to be a better 19 superintendent and to act in accordance with the law at 20 the time? 21 A. Now -- and the training basically is garnered 22 through attending meetings and conferences and 23 workshops, primarily the Texas Association of School 24 Boards, Texas Association of School Administrators, and 25 the Texas Education Agency. 0023 01 So between the various conferences that they 02 all conduct over the course of a year and attending 03 some of their sessions and meetings, that's where I 04 came up with the 40 hours. 05 Q. All right. Now, in addition to holding your 06 certification from the TEA, and in addition to your job 07 as a superintendent, are you a member of professional 08 associations? 09 A. Yes, I am. 10 Q. Okay. What professional education 11 associations are you currently a member of? 12 A. Phi Delta Kappa, the Texas Association of 13 School Administrators, the Horace Mann League, American 14 Association of School Administrators. That's all I can 15 recall right now. 16 Q. Okay. What is Phi Delta Kappa? 17 A. It's an educational fraternity based in 18 Bloomington, Indiana, for educators. 19 Q. Texas Association of School Administrators? 20 A. Primarily it's the superintendent organization 21 here in Texas. 22 Q. Do y'all go to conferences from time to time 23 to discuss issues? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And does it have any kind of periodic 0024 01 publication? 02 A. They do. 03 Q. Do you get e-mails from them? 04 A. No. 05 Q. Do you get faxes and letters? 06 A. No. 07 Q. What type of communications do they have? 08 A. Well, they provide -- there's a conference 09 that they conduct, and they publish a journal. I can't 10 think of the name of it right now, but I think it comes 11 out bimonthly -- every two months. 12 Q. Anything else from them? 13 A. I can't recall any other publications. 14 Q. What is the Horace Mann? Is that M-a-n-n? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And H-o-r-a-c-e? 17 A. Uh-huh. Horace Mann is an educational 18 organization based on trying to continue to promote the 19 ideals of Horace Mann, who was considered to be the 20 father of public education. The purpose is to continue 21 to promote public education and the importance of it. 22 Q. And the American Association of School 23 Administrators? 24 A. That's the national superintendents 25 organization. There can be other members, but 0025 01 predominantly the membership is made up of 02 superintendents around the country. 03 Q. Do they have publications? 04 A. Yes, they do. 05 Q. How often? 06 A. They have a monthly journal. And they have -- 07 they used to publish a newsletter every other week, but 08 now they don't do that anymore. I think it's kind of 09 an on-line, Web-based newsletter. 10 Q. Do you get that? 11 A. Yes, I do. 12 Q. Now, the District itself is also a member of 13 the Texas Association of School Boards? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And do you attend their conferences as well? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And that's a short term referred to as TASB? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. And do you get information from TASB -- 20 educational information from TASB from time to time? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. In fact, you work pretty closely with TASB, 23 don't you? 24 A. We do as a member, yes. 25 Q. And as a member, if they have information 0026 01 concerning changes in the law, policies, how policies 02 should be done, quite often you'll get those in draft 03 form for your review? 04 A. Because we subscribe to the TASB policy 05 service, that's right, we receive all updates. 06 Q. And that's a separate subscription, isn't it? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. A member doesn't have to necessarily subscribe 09 to the policy subscription, do you? 10 A. No. 11 Q. That's correct? 12 A. That's right. 13 Q. Now, you're aware from your experience in 14 public education that -- and I don't know how it was 15 done in Illinois or Iowa -- but did you have elected 16 school boards? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. Have you ever served on a school board? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Ever been elected to an office? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Ever ran for office? 23 A. I did. 24 Q. What office did you run for? 25 A. I ran for a junior college board of trustees 0027 01 when I was in Illinois. 02 Q. All right. Many years ago? 03 A. It would have been in 1979 or '80. 04 Q. All right. You've never served on an elected 05 board? 06 A. No. 07 Q. Have you ever served on an appointed board? 08 A. Through various organizations, yes, I have. 09 Q. Professional organizations? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Have you ever served on a city board, like the 12 library board, the parks board? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Police review board, anything like that? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Okay. Now, you're aware that there's a 17 relationship between the administration of the 18 professionals, the public education professionals and 19 the elected officials as you go through school 20 districts across the country? 21 A. Are you -- 22 Q. Let me ask you this way. 23 A. -- talking about -- 24 Q. Let me clarify my question. I can see you're 25 struggling with it, so let me clarify it for you. The 0028 01 purpose of the elected officials is to determine 02 direction -- overall direction and policy of that 03 District? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. And it is your responsibility as the 06 superintendent, or whoever is in the position of 07 superintendent and as the CEO of the school district, 08 to effectuate and implement the direction given by the 09 elected officials; is that correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. So you as a superintendent are subject 12 to the authority of the Board of Trustees? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Here in Plano, you as a superintendent are 15 subject to the authority of the Board of Trustees? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And from time to time, the board -- the school 18 boards, or what we refer to as the board of trustees, 19 have public meetings in which they discuss school 20 business in public; is that right? 21 A. I think they're referred to as business 22 meetings conducted in the public. 23 Q. Okay. And you're fully aware, are you not, 24 that there are laws in the state of Texas that require 25 that that type of business, with certain exceptions, be 0029 01 conducted in a public forum? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Where the citizens can come and can have input 04 and so forth; is that right? 05 A. Yes. Under certain conditions, you're right. 06 Q. Okay. And you're also aware that the school 07 district property, the schools themselves, the school 08 campuses and so forth, are public property; they're 09 owned by the public? 10 A. I don't know the exact terminology. I know 11 where I've been before it's been determined that 12 basically the state is the ultimate property holder or 13 owner, yes. 14 Q. Okay. But you know that the school campuses 15 here in Plano are owned by the Plano Independent School 16 District or the state or some other public agency? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Is that correct? 19 A. Yes, as far as I know. 20 Q. Doctor, when did you first become aware that 21 someone within the District was considering 22 implementing a connected math program? 23 A. I don't have an exact date, but it must have 24 been sometime during the spring, summer, early fall of 25 1996. 0030 01 Q. And how were you approached and by whom 02 concerning connected math? 03 A. Well, I'm not -- I can't recall by whom. I 04 believe the context that I was involved in was a report 05 to the Board that there was an intent on piloting 06 connected math in four middle schools. 07 Q. Had you heard of connected math prior to the 08 time that this issue came up in 1996? 09 A. No. 10 Q. Did you know what the program was when you 11 first heard it? 12 A. During the time when the report was given to 13 the Board and the materials that were given, I'm -- I 14 would have read those materials and become more 15 familiar with the program. 16 Q. But prior to that, you had not heard of the 17 program? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did you know who developed the program? 20 A. At that time, I did not. 21 Q. Who made the presentation to the Board for the 22 pilot program? 23 A. I can't recall exactly, but I'm -- I suspect 24 that it would have been Marilyn Brooks and Jim 25 Wohlgehagen who would have because they would have been 0031 01 responsible for secondary mathematics. 02 Q. Now, prior to the time that they went to the 03 Board -- and this was basically just a briefing to the 04 Board, wasn't it, telling them this is what we're going 05 to do; we're going to have a pilot program? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. The Board didn't actually take a public vote 08 on it, did they? 09 A. No. 10 Q. And they didn't actually implement that 11 program throughout all the schools at that time? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Is that correct? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. So it was basically an informative, this is 16 what we're doing, we're going to try it at a few 17 schools, and we'll get back with you? 18 A. I didn't say that. I can't recall the exact 19 report. I don't think it was that callous in terms of, 20 we'll get back to you. 21 Q. Well, I didn't mean it that way. I meant that 22 it is, we have become aware of a connected math 23 program, here's generally what it is, the 24 administration wants to pilot this at some schools, 25 we're just informing you of what we're going to do, and 0032 01 then we'll give you a subsequent report? 02 A. Yes, sir. 03 Q. Would that be a fair characterization? 04 A. Yes, I think that would characterize it. 05 Q. All right. Now, prior to the time that 06 Ms. Brooks and Dr. Wohlgehagen presented this to the 07 Board, had you approved the pilot program? 08 A. Well, again, I said I think Ms. Brooks and 09 Dr. Wohlgehagen made a report because it would have 10 made sense that those would have been the two to make 11 the report, so -- but, yes, obviously as superintendent 12 I would have had to have said, yes, I think the pilot 13 should -- you know, if that's the recommendation, then 14 we'll move ahead with the pilot and we'd make a report 15 to the Board. 16 Q. So what actually happened was somebody else in 17 the District presented this as part of your 18 curriculum -- and Ms. Brook said it was probably 19 Wohlgehagen that did that -- and that came to you 20 eventually for your approval? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you approved the pilot program and 23 approved briefing the Board on it? 24 A. Yes. I would have had to have said take it to 25 the Board, yes. 0033 01 Q. All right. Well -- and I'm just asking, 02 that's the procedure, isn't it -- 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. -- on something like that? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. Any administrator that has a program that they 07 want to pilot in the Plano Independent School District 08 is going to eventually have to get your approval before 09 it goes to the Board, aren't they? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, if that was in 1996, when did you start 12 the pilot program? 13 A. Let's see. Three-year pilot -- it would have 14 been in the fall of 1996. 15 Q. Okay. And do you know how many schools you 16 started the pilot program at? 17 A. Four. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. Four middle schools. 20 Q. Four middle schools. All grades or a 21 particular grade? 22 A. My recollection is that they started in the 23 6th grade, sir, and then they continued to add a grade 24 over the next two years -- 6th, and the next year 6th 25 and 7th, and then the third year was 6th, 7th and 8th. 0034 01 Q. Okay. Now, at those four schools, was there 02 an option for any of the parents or their children to 03 opt out of the connected math curriculum? 04 A. I'm not aware of any. 05 Q. When you started the pilot program, who 06 developed the materials that would be used for the 07 program? 08 A. I'm not -- I can't quote for sure who the 09 authors of the materials are, but the materials 10 themselves would have had to have made sure that they 11 met the state standards. 12 And I don't know if at that time they were 13 called the TEKS, the Texas Essential Knowledge and 14 Skills. It might have had a different term, but it was 15 the same -- the same premise. And so the curriculum 16 department would have had to have made sure that all 17 the state standards were being met through the 18 curriculum. 19 Q. So someone in the district had to decide what 20 materials would be used for the pilot? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you know who that was? 23 A. Well -- 24 Q. Who do you believe it was? 25 A. -- the appropriate person would have been 0035 01 Dr. Wohlgehagen as the curriculum coordinator for the 02 secondary math program. 03 Q. So either he did it or he had responsibility 04 to being sure it was done? 05 A. Yes, sir. 06 Q. And did those materials have to be submitted 07 to the Texas Education Agency for review? 08 A. Not to my knowledge. 09 Q. So he just developed the materials. And how 10 is the determination made that it complies with 11 essential skills? 12 A. You know, I'm not a curriculum person, so I'm 13 going to assume that in a curriculum writing process 14 they have the -- they have Texas Essential Knowledge 15 and Skills in front of them, and so they make sure that 16 those are interwoven into the curriculum. So, I mean, 17 that's the process I'm sure they go through, but I'm 18 not a curriculum person. 19 Q. All right. So you would expect 20 Dr. Wohlgehagen to have ensured that materials he was 21 using in your school district complied with the law? 22 A. Yes, that would have been his responsibility. 23 Q. And you expected him to do that, didn't you? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, do you 0036 01 believe he did that, or do you know? 02 A. The best of my knowledge, I believe he did. 03 Q. Okay. Now, there is not, as you understand it 04 on curriculum, a requirement of prior review and 05 submittal to the state agency? 06 A. I'm not aware of any. 07 Q. Okay. So if someone believed that the 08 materials being used did not meet the essential skills 09 required at that time, what could they do to bring that 10 to someone's attention? 11 A. Well, they could -- I suppose they could 12 address the issue locally, or they could address it 13 through state -- officials at the state. 14 Q. And they would have to find out what the 15 materials were first, wouldn't they? 16 A. Well, you indicated that they already knew 17 they didn't meet -- 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. -- the standards, so I was assuming that they 20 already believed that they didn't meet. So they must 21 have already reviewed the materials. 22 Q. So would you -- 23 A. I mean, just -- that's -- 24 Q. I understand. 25 A. Yeah. They -- so, yeah, I suspect that they 0037 01 would have had to have made the determination in their 02 minds that perhaps it didn't meet the TEKS. 03 Q. So I guess the point I'm trying to get to -- 04 and we're getting there quickly -- is that because 05 there's no prior review process when a new curriculum 06 is used by a school district, it's up to the 07 administrators in that district to be sure they comply 08 with the essential skills requirements? 09 A. Yes. There is ultimate responsibility that 10 the curriculum does meet the TEKS. 11 Q. And if a parent or citizen believes that the 12 materials do not meet the TEKS, well then they would 13 have a right to advocate that at the local level and at 14 the state level? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And they would have a right to bring that to 17 the attention of the school community? 18 A. Meaning -- school community? 19 Q. Meaning the teachers, the administrators, the 20 senior staff, the school board, other parents. They'd 21 have a right to bring that issue -- if they felt that 22 was what was going on, they'd have a right to bring 23 that issue to the attention of the community of the 24 school? 25 A. Yes. 0038 01 Q. Well, you certainly agree with that, don't 02 you? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. I mean, that's the law, isn't it, as you 05 understand it? 06 A. Well, I suspect you're asking me is, does 07 somebody have the right to raise a concern if they 08 think something is not right? 09 Q. That's right. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. If a parent believes that the District has not 12 complied with a legal regulation of the state, they 13 have a right to say that, don't they? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. They have a right to tell other parents that, 16 don't they? 17 A. Yes, they have a right to tell other parents. 18 Q. And they have the right to tell you as the 19 superintendent? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And they have the right to go to the Board and 22 tell the Board? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. When did you first become aware, Doctor, that 25 there were parents within your district that were 0039 01 opposing the full implementation of the connected math 02 program? 03 A. I don't have a specific date, but my best 04 recollection is that it was as we approached the 05 beginning of the school year of 1998. 06 Q. And how did you become aware that there were 07 parents who were expressing concerns or disagreements 08 or -- however you want to characterize it -- with the 09 CMP? 10 A. I'm sorry. What was the question again? 11 Q. Yes. How did you become aware -- 12 A. Oh. 13 Q. -- that there were parents opposed to the CMP? 14 A. There was -- I believe there was a meeting 15 sometime during the summer that was called by some 16 parents and invited other folks to come. In fact, 17 there may have even been something in the paper about 18 it, but I can't recall exactly if that was the case. 19 But it would have -- I think it would have been through 20 that particular meeting that I became aware of it. 21 Q. And how did you become aware of that meeting? 22 A. I can't recall exactly, so I would speculate 23 that maybe somebody called my attention to it through 24 seeing something in the paper or something like that. 25 Q. Did you have any discussions about that 0040 01 meeting in any of your staff meetings? 02 A. No. We were right in the middle of summer, so 03 our staff was on vacation, so we had no staff meetings. 04 Q. So it was in the early summer, like in June or 05 something? 06 A. It must have been. 07 Q. When does your staff typically take their 08 vacation? 09 A. During the month of -- the last two weeks in 10 June and the first couple of weeks in July is when most 11 people are gone. 12 Q. And it was during that period of time in the 13 summer of 1998 that this parents meeting was called? 14 A. I don't know exactly when it was, but it might 15 have been. 16 Q. Did you attend the meeting? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did you have other administrators attend the 19 meeting? 20 A. I don't recall. 21 Q. Did you get any feedback from anybody about 22 what occurred at the meeting? 23 A. No. 24 Q. And what did you perceive the opposition of 25 the parents to be at that time? 0041 01 A. I'm not sure at that time if I really knew. 02 So, you know, it's tough for me to answer that question 03 because I'm not real sure if I knew, even in my mind, 04 what the opposition or what the concerns were. 05 Q. Did you attempt to contact the parents to 06 discuss with them their opposition or concerns? 07 A. No. 08 Q. Did you ask any of your administrators to 09 contact the parents to discuss with them their 10 opposition and concerns? 11 A. I'm not aware of any time that I asked that. 12 Q. Now, when did you, subsequent to that meeting, 13 learn that there were parents opposing the CMP? 14 A. I don't remember. I mean, it could have very 15 well been that one of our staff members was called, or 16 somebody called and asked for a meeting. You know, I 17 don't recall exactly how I became more aware of the 18 situation, but I suspect it was through staff members 19 who were getting calls, but I'm not real sure about 20 that. 21 Q. And as you became more aware of the situation, 22 what did you learn about the parents' concerns or 23 opposition to the CMP? 24 A. The best of my recollection, it seemed to be 25 an issue about whether or not the program met the state 0042 01 standards or the TEKS. 02 Q. And by the program, you mean the materials 03 being used in the pilot? 04 A. Yeah, I mean, the curriculum. 05 Q. Okay. 06 A. Yeah. 07 Q. So the parents had an issue about whether or 08 not the CMP curriculum met the TEKS? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did you ever become aware that the parents had 11 a concern or issue about an opportunity to opt out of 12 connected math? 13 A. I'm trying to recollect if I did. I don't 14 remember any specific opt out request. If I remember 15 correctly, the issue really was about the -- whether or 16 not the curriculum was in compliance with state 17 standards or the TEKS. 18 And I also -- I do also recall that there was 19 an issue about, at the time, whether or not books -- 20 the materials themselves were being made available to 21 the students. And that was -- I think that was an 22 issue about -- that was being raised. I don't recall 23 at this time an opt out procedure request. 24 Q. Well, you certainly believe, do you not, 25 understanding the First Amendment of our Constitution, 0043 01 that if a parent has an opinion that a material or book 02 does not meet state standards, they have the right to 03 voice that opinion? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. And they have the right to solicit others of 06 similar mind? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. They have the right to seek petitions from 09 parents who want to oppose the school administration on 10 a program, don't they? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. Were you aware in the summer of 1998, 13 in the late summer before school started or right after 14 school started, that there were a series of 15 parent-teacher math nights at some of the schools? 16 A. At the middle schools? 17 Q. Yes, sir. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And are you aware that those parent-teacher 20 math nights were to discuss the CMP? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Okay. How did you become aware about the 23 parent-teacher math nights at some of the schools where 24 there was going to be a discussion about CMP? 25 A. How did I become aware that there were nights? 0044 01 Q. Yes, sir. 02 A. Well, the -- each of the principals were asked 03 to conduct an informational meeting for parents and to 04 have staff present. So I was aware of that. 05 Q. And the informational meeting was specifically 06 on the topic of connected math? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. And what did you envision that these meetings 09 would be? 10 A. That information about the program would be 11 provided and then an opportunity for questions to be 12 asked. And then, if possible, if the teachers were 13 there, an opportunity for parents to interact with 14 teachers. 15 Q. Did you envision that parents might want to 16 interact with each other? 17 A. Well, that wasn't -- did I envision that? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. Well, I told you what the purpose of the 20 meeting was. It was to provide information and then 21 for -- so obviously our parents could have talked to 22 each other, I suppose. 23 Q. Okay. You would expect that, wouldn't you? 24 A. During the meeting? 25 Q. Before or after the meeting. 0045 01 A. Sure. I would expect they would come 02 in and they would talk. 03 Q. Okay. And you expect that they would respond 04 among each other, parent to parent interaction, about 05 the information the school was giving them, didn't you? 06 A. Yes, I would expect that parents would talk to 07 each other as they come in, greet each other, talk -- 08 or even as they leave. 09 Q. When did you become aware that there was -- or 10 were parents at these math meetings that opposed the 11 administration's position on CMP? 12 A. You know, I don't recall specifically, but 13 the -- you know, in terms of being totally accurate, I 14 don't recall exactly when I was told or found out 15 that there were parents there who were opposed. But 16 sometime during the course of those meetings, it was 17 brought to my attention probably by another staff 18 member, but I really don't remember who. 19 Q. And what did you understand from that 20 communication -- or any other communications that you 21 had with your staff or your assistant superintendents 22 or principals -- happened at the parent-teacher math 23 nights? And specifically what I'm asking about is what 24 you understand happened with the people who were 25 opposing or distributing materials in opposition to the 0046 01 CMP. 02 A. Uh-huh. Well, just what you said, that it 03 came to my attention that parents were attempting to 04 hand out materials. 05 Q. And did you understand that those materials 06 that they were -- the parents were attempting to hand 07 out dealt with the subject matter of connected math? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Did you understand that those materials were 10 in opposition to or raised questions or concerns about 11 the District's pilot program on connected math? 12 A. Yes. Over the subsequent days after these 13 meetings were being conducted, you know, I became aware 14 that that's what the materials were about. 15 Q. Did you understand that the parents were 16 attempting to stand in the hallways or in the foyer 17 before the meeting and pass these materials out to 18 people as they ingressed to the meeting? 19 A. I don't recall exactly -- hearing exactly 20 where they were, but they were attempting to pass them 21 out prior to the meeting. 22 Q. All right. What did you learn that the school 23 administrators did when the parents attempted to 24 distribute these materials to other parents? 25 A. Yes. It came to my attention that they, at a 0047 01 few of the schools, asked the parents to stop 02 distributing the materials. 03 Q. And what schools did you become aware were the 04 parents requested to stop distributing materials by the 05 school officials? 06 A. Haggard Middle School and Hendrick Middle 07 School. 08 Q. Who -- I'm sorry. 09 A. Go ahead. I was going to say, subsequently I 10 found out about that it was also at Wilson Middle 11 School, but I did not know that at the time. 12 Q. You found out about the instruction to not 13 distribute materials at Wilson at a subsequent date? 14 A. Yes -- yeah, all of that subsequent date, but 15 it seemed like it was a little longer for Wilson when I 16 finally found out, yeah. 17 Q. What did you understand the reason to be that 18 the school officials told the parents not to distribute 19 materials in opposition to the CMP? 20 A. Really to the best of my recollection, I think 21 that the reason had to do with lack of prior review -- 22 a policy regarding prior review. Again, that's my best 23 recollection of why they were asked not to continue to 24 distribute them. 25 Q. Any other reasons that you heard about why the 0048 01 parents were told not to distribute materials? 02 A. There may have been some discussions about 03 whether or not it could cause some disruption. But, 04 again, my best recollection is that -- you know, that 05 policy regarding prior review, that standard wasn't 06 met, so they were asked to stop distributing them. 07 At least when some of the meetings got 08 started, I -- you know, we must have -- we had ten 09 meetings. And so I mentioned two or three of them, 10 so -- but I'm thinking that at the meetings in 11 question -- obviously, since all this has taken place 12 at the three schools, that the prior standard -- the 13 prior review standard was -- would have been the basic 14 reason. 15 Q. Now, did anyone ever report to you that there 16 was violence at any of the schools because of what the 17 parents were doing? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did they ever report any type of riot or 20 physical -- possible physical resurrection or anything? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Okay. You mentioned disruption. What did 23 someone tell you about disruption -- if that was a 24 reason to stop the distribution? 25 A. I think -- you know, I was not there, so I 0049 01 could only speculate that it meant trying to get the 02 meeting started on time, getting on with the agenda, 03 and trying to make sure that we conducted the meeting 04 in an orderly manner, so -- but again, I wasn't there. 05 Q. So you didn't hear any kind of reports that 06 there was physical confrontation, that there were 07 fights, that there was screaming or yelling or raucous 08 type of behavior, did you? 09 A. No. 10 Q. None of that? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Okay. None of what you would consider to be 13 disruption? 14 A. Well, I didn't say that. I said that, you 15 know, I was not there, but obviously there was a 16 concern in getting the meeting started on time, trying 17 to get on with the meeting, get people settled down, 18 begin the agenda. But, again, I was not there. 19 Q. Well, is that sufficient under your policies 20 to be able to stop parents from distributing literature 21 outside the hallway, the fact that people are stopping 22 and picking up materials and reading it on the way in 23 and maybe not sitting down quickly enough? Is that 24 sufficient under your policies to stop a parent from 25 distributing literature? 0050 01 A. I suppose it could be if it was to the point 02 where they just could not get the meeting started. 03 Q. Now, what was your policy at that time 04 concerning prior review? 05 A. Materials passed out by non-school groups at 06 meetings conducted and sponsored by the school need to 07 be submitted prior to that for review and approval. 08 Q. Was that a written policy? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. What's the policy number? 11 A. I don't recall. 12 Q. Were there any guidelines given to the persons 13 making the decision about prior review concerning what 14 could and could not be distributed? 15 A. I don't recall any. We have policies which 16 deal with handing out materials that might be 17 offensive, racist, you know, or that might be -- cause 18 trouble or whatever. I'm not sure of the language, but 19 I think there are some references to that. 20 Q. Let me hand you FNG Local. Is that the policy 21 that you're referring to? 22 A. Well, this is a policy regarding student and 23 parent complaints. I don't -- this doesn't appear to 24 be the one. 25 Q. Let me mark that for identification purposes, 0051 01 Doctor. 02 A. Sure. 03 Q. So we can identify it, I've marked it as 04 Exhibit 26. 05 (Exhibit No. 26 marked.) 06 Q. This was some documentation that I received 07 from the school district. And you can see on the 08 bottom of the second page it's got CMP 0017. That's 09 the control number. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. Okay. And this is, I guess, referred to as 12 FNG Local; is that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And was this policy in place in August of 15 1998? 16 A. It would have been. I'm not aware of any 17 updates between the time of the adoption of this policy 18 and 1998, so... 19 Q. But that's not the policy you were talking 20 about dealing with prior review; is that right? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Am I correct? 23 A. You're correct. 24 Q. Just for point of reference, is this the same 25 policy? 0052 01 A. It has the same date issued on it. It sure 02 looks like it. 03 Q. Okay. Let's look at this one. 04 (Exhibit No. 27 marked.) 05 Q. I'll hand you Exhibit 27. And this one is 06 called GKA Local; is that right? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. And its date of issue is 2/17/97; is that 09 right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Is this it? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. All right. So under the paragraph of 14 distribution of publications where it says, duplicated, 15 written, or printed materials, handbills, photographs, 16 pictures, films, tapes, or other visual or auditory 17 materials shall not be sold, circulated, or distributed 18 by persons or groups not associated with the school on 19 any school premises in the District unless they have 20 received permission in accordance with FMA Local, 21 period; is that right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Is that the policy you were referring to on 24 prohibition of distribution of materials? 25 A. Yes. 0053 01 Q. Okay. And when you learned that your school 02 officials at these parent nights had told the parents 03 that they could not distribute the parents' materials 04 that they had brought concerning the CMP program, based 05 upon what you've described to me your level of 06 knowledge being, did you come to the conclusion that 07 any of the school officials had violated your school's 08 policies? 09 A. No. 10 Q. Did you take any disciplinary action against 11 any school official for telling parents not to 12 distribute materials at the parent-teacher nights 13 critical of CMP? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Now, let's go back to Exhibit 27, and let me 16 ask you this question about your policy. It states -- 17 and I'm going to use quotes -- groups not associated 18 with the school. Do you see that quote? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Is there a definition in your policies 21 anywhere that defines what that means? 22 A. There could be, but right now I'm not aware of 23 any at this time. 24 Q. Now, Doctor, you would agree, wouldn't you, 25 that a parent who has a child enrolled in your school 0054 01 is associated with the school, wouldn't you? 02 A. As a parent, yes. 03 Q. And you would agree that a parent who has a 04 child enrolled in the school, who had come to an 05 invitation meeting of school officials to discuss a 06 math curriculum, is associated with the school for 07 purposes of that math curriculum, aren't they? 08 A. No, not necessarily. I think this policy is 09 referring to individuals who have in some way organized 10 or coming to the meetings for the purpose of handing 11 out materials, and I think the policy is clear that 12 they need prior review. 13 Q. So even though the people that were told that 14 they could not distribute materials were parents of 15 children enrolled in that school and had been invited 16 by the school to come to a meeting, your contention is 17 that this policy applies to them? 18 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection to the extent it 19 misstates the evidence. 20 Q. Is that correct? 21 MR. CRAWFORD: Go ahead and answer. 22 THE WITNESS: Oh. 23 A. I believe it does apply, yes. 24 Q. So it would be the policy of the Plano 25 Independent School District that even if a parent, such 0055 01 as Mr. Kirke, Mr. Johnson, and Mrs. Jenkins, had been 02 invited by the school to come to a parent-teacher 03 meeting and their student was -- their child was 04 enrolled in that school and was part of the connected 05 math program, that they would be considered a group not 06 associated with the school. And if they were told that 07 they could not distribute materials, that would be in 08 compliance with your policy? 09 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection to the extent it 10 misstates the evidence. And I also object to the 11 question as compound. 12 A. Can you break it down? You asked about three 13 different questions. 14 Q. Sure, I'll be happy to. Let's break it down. 15 I may have to ask it several times, but I'll be happy 16 to do that. 17 When you learned that there were parents who 18 had materials at the parent math night meetings and 19 that they were told they couldn't distribute those 20 materials, you also knew, did you not, that those were 21 parents at that meeting? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you knew that those parents at that 24 meeting had children enrolled in your school district? 25 A. Yes. 0056 01 Q. And you knew that those parents were opposed 02 to the very subject matter of the meeting that was 03 occurring that night? 04 A. Subject matter? You mean they didn't agree 05 with the agenda; is that what you're referring to? 06 Q. They did not agree with the administration's 07 promotion or advocacy of the connected math program. 08 They were in opposition to the program. 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. Now, you would agree with me, wouldn't 11 you, that it is important as a school administrator to 12 have parental input into a child's education? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And you encourage that input, don't you? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And the District encourages that input? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And when you look at a student in your school, 19 it's not just the student, it's their family that's 20 involved in the school, isn't it? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you encourage parents to come to school 23 and to participate in parent-teacher organizations and 24 the PTA organizations. You've encouraged parents to 25 have interaction with your faculty, don't you? 0057 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Now, they are associated with the school for 03 that purpose, aren't they? 04 A. As parents in that school, yes, they are 05 associated with the school in that they are there on 06 behalf of their children. 07 Q. And if that parent decides that they want to 08 distribute literature as a parent concerning the 09 subject matter of a parent-teacher meeting, what you're 10 telling me is, is that it's the school district's 11 policy that they can't do that without prior review? 12 A. I am. 13 Q. And it's on the basis of this policy, 14 Exhibit 27? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Okay. It's important, Doctor, that I 17 understand the District's position and your 18 understanding of your own policies. Do you understand 19 that? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Okay. 22 MR. BUNDREN: Now, Counsel, I suppose 23 that the Superintendent can speak for the District on 24 this issue of policy interpretation and application of 25 policy to the clients here? 0058 01 MR. CRAWFORD: To the extent he's able 02 to, yes. 03 MR. BUNDREN: All right. Do you have 04 some other witness that's going to speak on that issue 05 for the District? 06 MR. CRAWFORD: Not that I'm aware of. 07 MR. BUNDREN: Okay, good. 08 Q. Now, you're aware that Mr. Johnson, at some 09 point -- let me put it this way -- you became aware 10 that Mr. Johnson, one of the Plaintiffs in this case, 11 attempted to distribute materials at one of the 12 parent-teacher meetings before the meeting got started, 13 are you not? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you're aware that he was a parent 16 attending with an invitation from the school to come to 17 the parent-teacher meeting? 18 MR. CRAWFORD: Object to the extent it 19 misstates the evidence. 20 A. He was not a parent of a student at that 21 particular school where the incident took place, but he 22 was a parent in the district. 23 Q. Whose child would be subject to the CMP if it 24 was implemented district-wide? 25 A. If that child were in a middle school in our 0059 01 district, yes. 02 Q. Okay. So you're aware that Mr. Johnson had 03 been invited to attend by the school district? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. And that he was a parent of children enrolled 06 in your school district? 07 A. I think at that time he still was. I don't 08 recall for sure, but I believe at that time he still 09 was. 10 Q. Okay. And that he was there distributing 11 materials that were questioning the CMP program? 12 A. I did not -- yes, I did not have prior 13 knowledge of the materials themselves or what they said 14 but, yeah, my knowledge was that he had been there to 15 pass out materials, yes. 16 Q. Well, I'm trying to make a point here. He 17 wasn't there passing out materials about the 18 presidential campaign or something else. His materials 19 related to the subject matter of that meeting that 20 night, didn't they? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you learned that later? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And that doesn't make any difference according 25 to your policy? 0060 01 A. Right. 02 Q. He could have been passing out materials in 03 support of the CMP program, urging people to contact 04 the Board of Trustees and vote in favor of full 05 implementation, and your policy would have still 06 prohibited him from doing so? 07 A. That's right. 08 Q. And he could have been there -- and if he was 09 there -- well, okay. That's the point. 10 How long has Exhibit No. 27, and particularly 11 distribution of publications, been part of your GKA 12 Local policy? 13 A. GKA? 14 Q. GKA. 15 A. I don't have -- my answer would -- I would 16 say that the 2/17/1997 policy issuance date was 17 probably an update, so I can't speak as to whether or 18 not this particular policy was in place prior to that. 19 Q. Has GKA Local been changed since the 20 incidents in 1998, to your knowledge? 21 A. I'm not aware of any specific changes, but it 22 may have, through policy updates. It may have. 23 Q. What is the significance of when it says 24 local? 25 A. The policy book refers to legal and local 0061 01 policies. And local policies are local applications. 02 If statutes require districts to choose among certain 03 options, local policy needs to determine that if 04 there's something that the Board wishes to have placed 05 in the policy, so... 06 Q. So by local, is that a reference to the fact 07 that this is a local policy of the Plano Independent 08 School District, and that the Board has chosen to adopt 09 that policy? 10 A. Yes. That's -- that's right. It could also 11 be part of the overall legal policy that is also -- 12 there would be a GKA Legal policy, which would also be 13 an umbrella policy for that too, probably referenced 14 back or tied back to a legal policy as well. 15 Q. Now, what do you mean by an umbrella? 16 A. Most local policies are also supported by a 17 legal policy. And it would be -- in this case, it 18 would be GKA Legal. Now, I don't have that in front of 19 me, but that's what I meant by an umbrella. There 20 would be an over-arching policy, probably a legal 21 policy, and this would be a reference to that. 22 Q. Now, are you certain there is a GKA Legal? 23 A. I didn't say that. 24 Q. Okay. You said there might be, but you're not 25 certain? 0062 01 A. At this point, no. 02 Q. Okay. Let me ask you a question. What if 03 Mr. Johnson had been there that night under the same 04 circumstances, doing the same thing except that he was 05 passing out invitations for people to attend the 06 parent-teacher organization meeting the next night? 07 Would that violate your policy? 08 A. He's there as a member of the PTA? 09 Q. That's correct, passing out literature saying 10 we're going to have a PTA meeting tomorrow night, we 11 want you to join to help us raise money for the school. 12 Would that have been okay? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. If he had been there for the Plano 15 Sports Authority passing out information on the 16 upcoming basketball season or the upcoming soccer 17 season registration, would that have been okay? 18 A. Probably, if they would have gotten permission 19 from the principal. 20 Q. Well, they don't have to, do they? Aren't 21 they groups associated with the school? 22 A. Typically they are labeled that, but we still, 23 in most instances, would ask them to make sure it was 24 okay with the principal to hand those out. 25 Q. If Mr. Johnson or Mr. Kirke had went to the 0063 01 school and passed out information about the YMCA Indian 02 Guides program or Indian Princess program and 03 encouraging parents to enroll their children in those 04 programs, that would have been okay, right? 05 A. I believe the policy permits that. 06 Q. Okay. But because they were there as a 07 parent, that's not okay? 08 A. I didn't say that. I said that because they 09 were passing out materials that had not been subject to 10 prior review, that was against policy. 11 Q. Okay. Because parents have to get prior 12 review? 13 A. If they want to hand out materials, yes. 14 Q. Okay. Under your policy? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Okay. But an organization associated with the 17 school, such as the PTA, the PTO, Plano Sports 18 Authority, YMCA, they don't have to get that prior 19 review, do they? 20 A. No. As I said, they probably -- the 21 principal would request at least to know that they're 22 going to do that, but they don't have to have prior 23 review. 24 Q. The same thing would apply to the Boy Scouts, 25 to the scouting program. Y'all permit them to go 0064 01 without prior review? 02 A. Yeah, I think we -- Boy Scouts, the school 03 night for scouting activity, we allow them to send home 04 advertisements. 05 Q. Okay. So organizations like PTA, PTO -- 06 that's Parent-Teacher Organization or Parent-Teacher 07 Association -- 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. -- YMCA programs, Plano Sports Authority 10 programs, which are the soccer league, the basketball 11 league, the football league, the baseball league, all 12 the sporting programs, scouting, Boy Scouts, Girl 13 Scouts, things like that -- 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. -- they can attend one of these meetings and 16 distribute materials to the parents without prior 17 review, and they can send materials home with the 18 children without prior review? 19 A. As a -- yes. As a nonprofit organization in 20 the District, the Board has give us permission to allow 21 that to happen. 22 Q. On the distribution going home? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. But now as to the distribution of 25 publications, which is Exhibit 27, that doesn't say 0065 01 anything about nonprofit, does it? 02 A. No. 03 Q. It just mentions groups not associated -- or 04 it distinguishes or cuts out groups not associated with 05 the school, correct? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. And that, under your definition, would include 08 parents whose children are enrolled there? 09 A. If they were there for the purpose of handing 10 out materials that had not been subject to prior 11 review, yes. That's my answer, yes. 12 Q. Okay. 13 MR. BUNDREN: We'll take a short break. 14 (Recess from 2:47 to 3:06 p.m.) 15 Q. Doctor, before the break we were discussing 16 the distribution of materials by the parents at the 17 math nights. Do you recall that -- 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. -- discussion? And you were referencing 20 Exhibit 27, I believe, which is your FM -- or is it GKA 21 Local? 22 A. GKA Local. 23 Q. Okay. And remember I was asking you questions 24 about the types of materials that could be distributed 25 by the parents at those meetings. We also briefly 0066 01 referenced materials that could be sent home with the 02 children. 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. Okay. I want to show you some other examples 05 of some materials and ask you a couple of questions 06 about these, if you don't mind. 07 (Exhibit No. 28 marked.) 08 Q. Keep your policy in front of you. You're 09 going to need that. Okay. Let me hand you Exhibit 28. 10 I'll give you a moment to look at that. 11 Now, under your policy, GKA Local, on 12 distribution of materials at the school, would 13 Exhibit 28 be a type of literature that a parent could 14 distribute in the same circumstance as the parents here 15 were not permitted to distribute information about CMP? 16 In other words, you understand my question? 17 A. (Moving head up and down.) 18 Q. If Mr. Johnson, Mr. Kirke, or Mrs. Jenkins 19 were at one of those parent math nights, and they went 20 there and they know other parents were going to be 21 coming for the parent-teacher conferences and they 22 wanted to distribute -- hand out fliers, could they 23 hand out Exhibit 28? 24 A. Yes, I think they could, under -- again, I 25 don't have the -- I believe that the PTA -- in this 0067 01 case, PTO -- as you know, it depends upon which your 02 organization is the -- is the recognized organization 03 at the school -- but I believe under GKA Local, and it 04 references FMA Local, I think that's where the PTA or 05 PTO are mentioned as organizations that can pass out 06 materials. 07 Q. So Exhibit 28 would be a type of material 08 that -- under the same circumstances with Mr. Johnson, 09 Mr. Kirke, and Mrs. Jenkins on the parent-teacher math 10 night -- they could have passed out that material, but 11 they could not pass out the materials they brought 12 critical of CMP? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. And the example I've given you of 28 15 does not require prior approval -- to have to go 16 through that prior approval process? 17 A. No. As I mentioned earlier, I think if 18 they're going to come to a meeting that's not a PTO or 19 PTA meeting -- depending upon which school it is -- the 20 principal probably would like a heads up on that, but 21 the prior approval requirement does not apply to some 22 of those organizations. 23 Q. And similarly, if they wanted to hand those to 24 the school administrators and have them distributed 25 through the children's backpacks to take home to the 0068 01 parents, Exhibit 28 could be taken home? 02 A. Yes, the children at Meadows Elementary. 03 (Exhibit No. 29 marked.) 04 Q. Now, let me let you look at Exhibits 29 and 05 30. Take a look at those. I have the same -- similar 06 questions about those, but I want you to look at those 07 real quick. 08 A. Okay. 09 Q. Now, what is 29? 10 A. Okay. 29 is a flier that has been 11 distributed by the American Youth Soccer Organization. 12 And it is a flier that talks about soccer leagues, 13 registration, when that begins. 14 (Exhibit No. 30 marked.) 15 Q. Okay. And how about 30? What is that? 16 A. Okay. 30 is a flier that references Girl 17 Scout recruitment night at one of our elementary 18 schools -- Meadows Elementary School. 19 Q. Okay. Would both of those type of fliers be 20 permitted to be distributed by the children to take 21 home to their parents, under your policies? 22 A. Under my understanding of the policy, the Girl 23 Scouts recruitment night, I believe, is referenced 24 there. I don't know if the American Youth Soccer 25 Organization is one of the approved or acknowledged 0069 01 nonprofit organizations. I know that Plano Youth 02 Soccer or some organization like that -- but to be 03 honest with you, I'm not real sure about this one, 04 whether or not it would be approved or not because I 05 don't -- I'm not real sure about the background of this 06 organization. So I don't mean to be ambiguous, but I'm 07 not real sure about this one. 08 Q. Now, what would they have to do to get 09 approved, to be able to have fliers distributed through 10 the children going home to the parents or to have 11 someone come up to the school in a parent-teacher 12 meeting and distribute fliers? 13 A. According to policy, they would have to be a 14 nonprofit organization that would be sponsoring a 15 program or conducting a program that would be 16 beneficial to students. 17 Q. Would you look at your GKA Local policy again? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Does that say anything at all about the 20 requirement that they be a nonprofit? 21 A. No, not in GKA. 22 Q. Okay. All it says is that they have to be 23 affiliated or associated with the school? 24 A. Yes. But like I said, there's a reference to 25 FMA Local, so I'm not -- that may be where it is. 0070 01 (Exhibit No. 31 marked.) 02 Q. Let me hand you 31. Would 31 be a flier that 03 Mr. Johnson or Mr. Kirke or Mrs. Jenkins could 04 distribute at one of the parent-teacher math nights? 05 A. It's my understanding that it would be, that 06 the PBA and the girls' affiliate softball association 07 would be approved. 08 Q. Okay. And they could also have that 09 distributed in the backpacks of the kids to take home? 10 A. Yes. 11 (Exhibit No. 32 marked.) 12 Q. 32, same question. Is that the type of flier 13 that Mr. Johnson or Mr. Kirke or Mrs. Jenkins could 14 have distributed at one of the parent math nights? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. By the way, before I forget it, does the 17 District receive federal funds? 18 A. Yes, it does receive some. 19 Q. Do you know about how much the District 20 receives? 21 A. I don't know exactly. It's a small percent of 22 our overall budget. 23 Q. But have you been a recipient of federal funds 24 for each year that you've been a superintendent? 25 (Exhibit No. 33 marked.) 0071 01 Q. Exhibit No. 33 is an Indian Guides group 02 flier. Could Mr. Johnson, Mr. Kirke, or Mrs. Jenkins 03 have distributed that flier at one of those 04 parent-teacher math nights? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. And could they have had that sent home in the 07 backpacks of the kids? 08 A. Yes. 09 (Exhibit Nos. 34 - 37 marked.) 10 Q. Similarly, let me show you Exhibits 34, 35, 11 36, and 37. Could Mr. Johnson or Mr. Kirke -- hang on 12 just a minute. Doctor, the last one I gave you was 37. 13 A. No -- yes, excuse me. It was two pages. 14 Q. Now, which ones are you looking at? 15 A. Okay, 34. 16 Q. Okay. What is 34? 17 A. 34 is an announcement of the first annual 18 punt, pass, and kick contest, sponsored by the Plano 19 East Quarterback Club. 20 Q. Is that flier a flier that Mr. Johnson, 21 Mr. Kirke, or Mrs. Jenkins, or any of the other 22 Plaintiffs could have distributed at one of the 23 parent-teacher math nights without getting prior 24 approval? 25 A. Yes, I believe so. 0072 01 Q. And is it a type of flier that could have been 02 distributed to the children to take home to their 03 parents without getting prior approval? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. Would you look at the -- at the next several 06 there. And what's the next one you have there? 07 A. It's a flier for a Little Caesars Pizza Kits. 08 Q. Is that flier the type of flier that the 09 Plaintiffs could have distributed at the parent-teacher 10 math nights without getting prior approval? 11 A. It could be. I don't know. It doesn't say 12 who the sponsoring organization is. So if it were -- I 13 don't know. I can't answer to this one. 14 Q. If it was to raise money for the PTO, would 15 that be okay? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. All right. How about the next one? What is 18 that? 19 A. This looks like it's an advertisement for 20 Markel Insurance Company about an insurance program for 21 students. 22 Q. Could the parents, on the night of the math 23 meetings, have distributed those to other parents 24 without getting prior approval? 25 A. I don't see any sponsoring organization. It 0073 01 appears to be a private company. And without any 02 additional knowledge as to who was sponsoring this and 03 whether or not this is a program that has been approved 04 by the -- you know, by the school district, I would say 05 that unless those assumptions were met, it would not be 06 allowed to be distributed to students. 07 Q. Has the school district ever approved 08 insurance companies offering insurance to students -- 09 coming in and offering insurance? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And if you -- 12 A. But that's coordinated by our property and 13 casualty risk management department at school in terms 14 of approved insurance plans for -- student insurance 15 plans. 16 Q. So if the casualty department at the school 17 had reviewed this insurance company's credentials and 18 had determined that they were a qualified company and 19 they had a good program, it would have been permitted 20 to distribute that literature at school? 21 A. Well, I think there's -- to the best of my 22 recollection, there's one other standard they would 23 have to meet, and that is, that that would -- this 24 particular company would have to be endorsed by the 25 District as a provider. 0074 01 Q. Of insurance? 02 A. Yeah. 03 Q. So if the company -- the insurance company was 04 endorsed by this District as a provider of insurance, 05 then it would have been permissible for Mr. Johnson, 06 Mr. Kirke, or Mrs. Jenkins on the night of the parent 07 meetings to pass out literature to the parents about 08 this insurance program without prior approval? 09 A. Well, it -- no, because it did require prior 10 approval. 11 Q. Why did it require prior approval? 12 A. Because, as I mentioned, it's an insurance 13 company that if -- it has to meet the -- it has to be 14 one of the endorsed companies by the risk management 15 department. 16 Q. Okay. Well, once they endorse that company, 17 then it's okay for parents to distribute that 18 literature at school? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And it's okay to have it distributed by the 21 children to their parents through their take-home 22 folders? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. All right. That was the insurance one, right? 25 A. No. 0075 01 Q. I'm sorry. Which one was the insurance one? 02 A. 36. 03 Q. 36, okay. In the past -- isn't it true in the 04 past that the District has endorsed insurance 05 companies? 06 A. Well, I'm not sure. I think that's been our 07 practice -- but, again, I'm not sure. 08 Q. Who would know the answer to that? 09 A. Our deputy superintendent would probably know, 10 and for sure the director of the risk management 11 department. 12 Q. Who are those individuals? 13 A. Danny Modisette is our deputy superintendent, 14 and Becky Garrett is the director of the risk 15 management program department. 16 Q. What is next exhibit you have? 17 A. I have Exhibit 37, which is a weekly 18 publication of the Bethany PTA. 19 Q. And would it be permissible for a parent from 20 the Bethany PTA to go to a parent-teacher meeting after 21 school hours, like the math meetings, and distribute 22 that to the parents? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And would it be permissible out of your 25 policies for that to be distributed by the students to 0076 01 the parents through their take-home folders? 02 A. Yes. 03 (Exhibit Nos. 38 - 46 marked.) 04 Q. Okay. Let me hand you Exhibits 38 through 46, 05 and ask you to take a look at those. Would those be 06 the types of fliers that parents could distribute at a 07 parent-teacher meeting after school hours, such as the 08 math nights? 09 A. All of these? 10 Q. Yes, if you want to look at them quickly and 11 just tell me. 12 A. Okay. Should we take them one at a time? 13 Q. Sure, if you would. And let me ask you, 14 Doctor, I'm going to be asking you the same questions 15 that I've asked you on the other ones. 16 A. Sure. 17 Q. One is that under the same or similar 18 circumstances, could Mr. Kirke, Mr. Johnson, and 19 Mrs. Jenkins have distributed those to other parents at 20 the meetings after school when the parents and teachers 21 were there to discuss math, and could they have had 22 those fliers distributed with the kids to take home? 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. If you'll tell me which ones would be 25 permitted to be done and which ones would not. 0077 01 A. Exhibit 38 is a PTA-PTO fund-raiser. And so 02 if they were at -- the children were at that school and 03 they were members, they would be able to pass that out. 04 Do you want to take them in order? Sorry, I 05 got them a little bit out of order. Exhibit 39 06 references Paperboard Recycling Returns. I don't see 07 any sponsoring organization, so I can't give you an 08 answer on that one as to whether or not that -- I don't 09 know. I'd have to know more information about who is 10 sponsoring it, where the proceeds are going, and just 11 who they are. So I couldn't tell you at this point 12 whether or not it would be permitted. 13 Q. If that was sponsored by your athletic booster 14 club or by your PTO or PTA, would it be okay? 15 A. If it were sponsored by the PTO or PTA as a 16 program that they were sponsoring in the school and 17 asked for the kids' participation -- voluntary 18 participation, yes, it would be permitted. 19 Q. Okay. By the way, Doctor, do you have a 20 program called Market Day? 21 A. Does the school have one? I don't know. 22 Q. Is that permitted at the schools? 23 A. Is that -- which one is Market Day? Do you 24 know what -- is it -- okay. You're asking me a 25 question. If it's sponsored by the PTA or PTO as a 0078 01 fund-raiser. 02 Q. I understand Market Day is a program where 03 people can order things and a commercial enterprise 04 will deliver it to their front door; is that right -- 05 or deliver it to the school to be delivered to -- food 06 items. 07 A. That's my understanding. And that it's a 08 fund-raiser for the PTA or PTO. 09 Q. So those type of fund-raisers, literature on 10 that type of fund-raiser, Market Day's literature to 11 encourage parents to order food from Market Day, those 12 types of things would be permitted to be distributed 13 without prior approval? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. Okay. What is the next exhibit? 16 A. Next one is -- again, it's an event sponsored 17 by the Bethany Elementary School PTA. It's called 18 Bethany Bye Lines. Again, it's sponsored by the PTA. 19 It could be sent home in children's backpacks. 20 Q. And could it be distributed by parents at a 21 parent-teacher meeting? 22 A. Yes. I want to qualify that by saying, yes, 23 if it's at Bethany and its Bethany's membership, yes, 24 absolutely. 25 Again, Exhibit 41 is Bethany Elementary School 0079 01 spirit wear, sponsored by Bethany PTA as a fund-raiser. 02 It could go home with students or be distributed at a 03 parent meeting at Bethany. 04 Exhibit 42 is Bethany Family Swim Night, 05 sponsored by Bethany PTA. So, yes, it does fall within 06 the policy and it could be distributed by the Bethany 07 PTA. 08 Exhibit 43 -- Exhibit 43 references a fire 09 prevention poster contest. I'm not seeing who is 10 sponsoring it. The -- 11 Q. If the local Plano city fire department was 12 sponsoring that, could it be distributed without prior 13 approval? 14 A. I don't have the policy in front of me, but I 15 have some recollection that says that poster contests, 16 contests sponsored by outside agencies, need to be -- 17 to go through the school for approval. So I don't 18 believe that this one could be -- based on my 19 recollection of the policy, it would require prior 20 approval. 21 Q. Unless it was sponsored by PTA, PTO? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. 44 references some classes in fine arts 25 apparently sponsored by an organization called The 0080 01 Classics Studio. So I would -- this is not affiliated 02 with any of the PTO, PTA, or nonprofit groups, so I 03 would imagine that this one would require prior 04 approval -- excuse me -- nonprofit arts organization -- 05 I'm sorry, I didn't read all of this. 06 It is a nonprofit arts organization, so they 07 would have the opportunity to pass out information, but 08 they probably would require prior approval in that it's 09 not considered to be an affiliate of the school. 10 Q. Go ahead. What's the next one? 11 A. Exhibit 45 references a discount coupon to Six 12 Flags. These have -- to my knowledge, these have gone 13 home before in book bags. In some instances, it was a 14 fund-raiser for -- by a PTA, PTO. I'm trying to 15 recollect whether or not this happened with regard to 16 trying to raise funds for prom night, but I don't know 17 for sure. 18 There's a coupon with Six Flags that's 19 affiliated with a -- I'm going to call it Pepsi Kid 20 Around contest, or something to that effect -- and I'm 21 not sure that's the exact name, but it's raise -- it's 22 a fund-raiser for a nonprofit organization that some of 23 our families take advantage of, the Plano -- it's 24 called Family Center or something like that. 25 Q. Would that be permitted without prior 0081 01 approval? 02 A. It would not be permitted if it was brought in 03 by an outside organization or agency for which we have 04 no affiliation or control, and we would require prior 05 approval. If this were part of a fund-raiser for the 06 local PTO or PTA or some other affiliated program with 07 the school district, we would allow them to go home. 08 Q. Without prior approval? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, the top of that Exhibit says Plano ISD? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you recall there being nights out at Six 13 Flags where the Plano ISD is invited to come out to 14 participate in Six Flags as a district? 15 A. I'm not aware of any. There may be, but I'm 16 not aware of any. 17 Q. Okay. What's the next one? 18 A. I think this is the back of one we've already 19 talked about. It references that Classics. There was 20 one that didn't have an exhibit number on it -- yeah, 21 it does. I think it's the back side of one we've 22 already discussed, Exhibit 46. It's a nonprofit group 23 called The Classics, which offer classes at their 24 private studios, classes in the arts. And I think at 25 that time I said that it would -- it's a nonprofit 0082 01 organization. It would require prior approval before 02 it would be allowed to be distributed. 03 Q. Okay. Let me hand you Exhibit 28. Exhibit 28 04 is a petition for the addition of a specific academic 05 6th grade math class for Armstrong; is that correct? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. Okay. And it's got a place here for the 08 child's name, the address, the parent or guardian, the 09 guardian's signature. And if you look at the content 10 of the paragraph, it's a signature petition for 11 addition of a specific academic class in the course of 12 study of math at Armstrong Middle School; is that 13 correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. It also has a specific request -- signature 16 request for conforming textbook for this course of 17 study, being the Glenco/McGraw-Hill Division, 18 Mathematics: Applications and Connections, Course 1, 19 Texas Edition; is that correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. Is Armstrong Middle School one of your 22 middle schools? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Now, if Mr. Johnson, Mr. Kirke, Mrs. Jenkins, 25 or any of the Plaintiffs went to a parent-teacher math 0083 01 meeting in the evening after school and stood out in 02 front of the hallway of the meeting inside the school 03 building, and in a nondisruptive manner passed out 04 these petitions requesting people to sign them and 05 return them, or to sign them and send them to you, 06 would that be a violation of your distribution of 07 publication policy -- GKA Local? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Why? 10 A. It needs to meet the standard of prior 11 approval. 12 Q. So a parent would have to get prior approval 13 before talking to another parent and handing them a 14 signature petition dealing with the specific subject 15 matter of the meeting that night? 16 MR. CRAWFORD: I'm going to object to 17 that to the extent it mischaracterize the evidence and 18 as a compound question. 19 Q. Is that what you're telling me? 20 A. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that at a 21 District-sponsored meeting, if a parent wanted to hand 22 out other materials -- 23 Q. I'm asking about this specific material. 24 A. If they wanted to hand out this specific -- it 25 would require prior approval, yes. 0084 01 Q. And if they wanted to have this specific 02 petition sent home to the children -- excuse me -- by 03 the children to their parents, it would require what, 04 if they could even do it? If it's a parent, 05 they're not a nonprofit? 06 A. It would require prior approval. 07 Q. Are you sure that you even have a policy that 08 permits that if they're not a nonprofit, if it's just a 09 parent? 10 A. The -- I don't have all the policies in front 11 of me, but I -- well, I believe if they met the 12 standard of prior approval, it could be allowed. 13 Q. To be disseminated by the students to their 14 parents through their take-home folders? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, in looking at your GKA Local distribution 17 of publications paragraph, which is what we've been 18 looking at today, that paragraph does not reference the 19 term nonprofit, does it? 20 A. No. 21 Q. And that paragraph does not describe or 22 identify or define the term groups, does it? 23 A. No. 24 Q. However, it does say, distributed by persons 25 or groups. So if the person is associated with the 0085 01 school because they are a parent, does your policy 02 still require prior approval before they could hand out 03 signature petitions? 04 MR. CRAWFORD: Object to the question to 05 the extent it assumes an improper hypothetical. 06 A. I believe it would require prior approval. 07 Q. Okay. Now, at some point, did you become 08 aware that the Plaintiffs in this case that I 09 represent, one or more of them were attempting to 10 distribute petitions at some of the parent-teacher math 11 nights? 12 A. I don't believe I knew that they were actually 13 petitions until well after the nights were over. 14 Q. But at some point, someone told you that that 15 was something else they were doing? 16 A. Yeah. In fact, it was later that spring that 17 it became -- that I knew that petitions were being 18 circulated. It was some word I had gotten at some 19 school carnivals and things like that, but that's the 20 first I became aware of a petition. 21 Q. Okay. But nevertheless, if they were, in 22 fact, distributing signature petitions similar to 23 Exhibit 28 at those parent-teacher math nights in 24 August and September of 1998, under your interpretation 25 of the policy, that would require prior approval before 0086 01 they could do that? 02 A. I believe it would require prior approval to 03 be handed out, yes. 04 Q. Okay. Now, I am going to hand you something. 05 And let me say before I hand it to you, some of the 06 copies that we got are not real clear. And I'm not 07 trying to -- this is the best I have. And so we may 08 have to substitute this. 09 And I am -- you're much more familiar with 10 your policies than I am. And I'm simply trying to find 11 out what your policies are. I apologize ahead of time. 12 Is that okay? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Okay. I'm going to hand you what was marked 15 as -- in our Bates stamped numbering system as 1309 and 16 1310. It appears to me -- and I could be wrong, 17 Doctor -- that this is the first page of the GKA Local, 18 because I see a very similar language on page 1310 19 under distribution of publications. 20 And as I compare Exhibit No. 27 to this 21 document, under the paragraph of distribution of 22 publication, I don't see any changes. Do you? 23 A. Let's see. I don't see any. 24 Q. Okay. Now, however, on page 1310, this 25 document indicates that the date of issue was 4/26/99. 0087 01 And on Exhibit 27, the date of issue was 2/17/1997; is 02 that right? 03 A. Yes, sir. 04 Q. Can you explain that? 05 A. Policies are routinely updated through updates 06 mailed by the Texas Association of School Boards. And 07 subsequent to the -- I think after the 1997 legislative 08 session, which would have concluded in late May or 09 early June of '97, over the course of the next almost 10 two full years, the policy service goes through the 11 entire policy book, all seven sections, and tries to 12 update policy. And many of them are not even changes. 13 They're just given a new date to show that they've been 14 reviewed within the prior year or two years. 15 So all of -- if you look at our policies, 16 you'll notice that there's been a succession of dates 17 on these policies to show that they've gone through a 18 review process for any changes. And so these dates are 19 dates that are stamped on there by the TASB 20 organization. 21 Q. The only reason I asked that question is that 22 I want to be sure that I can rely upon the wording of 23 your policy and not misstate what that wording is. And 24 so I want to be certain that we're dealing with the 25 correct policy. Do you understand that? 0088 01 A. Yes, sir. 02 Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to go ahead and mark 03 this exhibit that I just showed you. And I highlighted 04 that, so let me give you the other one back. 05 A. Okay. 06 (Exhibit No. 47 marked.) 07 Q. Doctor, let me hand you what's been marked as 08 Exhibit 47. And that's the pages 1309 and 1310 that 09 has the date of issue of 4/26/99. And it has the 10 distributions of publications restrictions on it. And 11 this is your GKA Local policy; is that right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Now, even though this has a date of issue 14 after August of 1998, the date I was asking you about 15 when the parents were out at the math nights, 16 Exhibit 27 and Exhibit 47, the language isn't changed 17 as to that paragraph; is that correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. Now, do you know of any changes in the 20 distribution of publications policy, GKA Local, since 21 April of 1999, the date of the issue of Exhibit 47? 22 A. There may be some, but I'm not aware of any 23 right now. 24 Q. Doctor, is there any person at the school 25 district that has a greater understanding of the 0089 01 policies than you? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Who? 04 A. It would be the special assistant to the 05 superintendent for communications, Carole Greisdorf, 06 because it's under her direction that the policy manual 07 is maintained and updated and policy revisions are 08 brought to the Board. 09 Q. What is her last name, Carole -- 10 A. Greisdorf, G-r-e-i-s-d-o-r-f. 11 Q. And she's an assistant to you? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Is she the custodian of the policies? 14 A. Yes. 15 (Exhibit No. 48 marked.) 16 Q. Let me hand you Exhibit 48. Again, I 17 apologize, but this is the only copy that I have. And 18 I note that it's a little -- the right-hand side, for 19 some reason, is not copied very well, but I believe 20 that this is your GKA Legal; is that right? 21 A. If you look on the last page, it references 22 FMA. 23 Q. That may have been mis-attached? 24 A. Yes, but it's not consistent with the first 25 two or three pages here. 0090 01 Q. Okay. Let me see that. I'm going to take 02 those last two pages off. I don't want to confuse the 03 two policies. 04 A. I don't know if it's the last two or the last 05 one. Yeah, there are several policies in here. 06 Q. Well, let me ask you, do these go together or 07 not? What -- if you feel -- please feel free to 08 organize them appropriately because, again, I believe 09 you have more knowledge than I do of your policies, and 10 I don't want to misrepresent anything to you. If you 11 look on page 1322, this is the third page in -- 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. -- it says, date of issue, 4/10/96, and it 14 says GKA(H)-P? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Then on the next page it starts off with FMA 17 Legal? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. The A is -- must be there somewhere. 21 Q. I understand. What was that exhibit number 22 again? 23 MR. CRAWFORD: 48. 24 MR. BUNDREN: 48. 25 Q. Let me hand you one that does not have those 0091 01 last two pages on it. I think that comes somewhere 02 else. I'm sure we can get this straightened out with 03 the assistance of Carole. 04 Let me hand you a 48 that just has pages, for 05 the record, 1320, 1321, and 1322, which I believe 06 concludes the GKA, if I'm not mistaken; is that right? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Okay. Now, as I understand it, Doctor, when 09 it says local -- whatever it is: GKA, FNG, FMA, 10 whatever it is -- it says that local, that is your 11 actual policy? 12 A. No, not in all cases. 13 Q. What does local mean? 14 A. It could mean many things. First of all, 15 there may be a legal policy in the policy manual that 16 does not have an affiliated local policy with it. It 17 just stands alone as a legal policy. 18 I think I tried to explain earlier that a 19 local policy typically would be when the legal policy 20 requires a school district to adopt rules of its own or 21 it may require a district to choose between options 22 provided by statute, but they have to declare. 23 It may be a local policy, maybe just something 24 that the school board wishes to have inserted in the 25 manual. 0092 01 The legal policies come to us from the Texas 02 Association of School Boards, and typically always 03 represent changes in statutes, they'll -- they could -- 04 court decisions, federal laws. So any changes like 05 that would be your legal policies. 06 Q. Now, if you look at GKA Local or Exhibit 48 -- 07 is that correct? 08 MR. CRAWFORD: Legal is 48. Local is 27. 09 Q. Legal, that's 48, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. There's a paragraph on disruption of 12 classes. That doesn't really apply to anything we're 13 talking about, does it? 14 A. It does reference at the bottom, assemblies or 15 other school sponsored activities. 16 Q. It's talking about conduct that disrupts the 17 educational activities of the school include -- and 18 then it goes through a list of items that defines what 19 disruption is, when you're disrupting the educational 20 activities. 21 All right. I don't believe that you said 22 earlier that anyone was prohibited from distributing 23 materials because you felt there was a substantial 24 material disruption; is that correct, or am I wrong? 25 A. No, I didn't say that. I said that I heard 0093 01 references that there may have been some disruption, 02 and then we talked about what the definition was. And 03 I said I didn't think there was any violation or 04 physical problems. 05 But if it meant making it difficult to get the 06 meeting started or making it difficult to begin the 07 meeting, conduct the meeting, then, of course, it may 08 have been considered as being disruptive. But I think 09 I said that I did not hear of any violence or physical 10 threats. 11 Q. If you look at the next paragraph down, 12 disruption of lawful assembly, it states no person or 13 group of persons acting in concert may intentionally 14 engage in disruptive activity or a disruptive -- or 15 disrupt a lawful assembly on the campus or property of 16 any school in the District. And then it defines what 17 disruptive activity means: obstructing or restraining 18 the passage of persons, seizing control of a building, 19 preventing or attempting to prevent force or violence, 20 disrupting by force or violence or threat of force or 21 violence a lawful assembly, obstructing or restraining 22 the passage of any person. 23 Now, did you hear anything about any of that 24 going on by the Plaintiffs or the parents? 25 A. I did not, but I wasn't there. But I did not 0094 01 hear that. 02 Q. Okay. Now, under the trespassing paragraph, 03 it states that the Board or its authorized 04 representative may refuse to all persons having no 05 legitimate business to enter on the property. 06 You don't contend that the parents had no 07 legitimate business, do you? 08 A. No. 09 Q. They certainly had a right to be there, didn't 10 they? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. They were invited to come? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And they were parents of children? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Tobacco on school property doesn't apply, does 17 it? 18 A. I didn't hear of any. 19 Q. Okay. Smoking in buildings, that wasn't the 20 reason they were told to leave? 21 A. I didn't hear that either. 22 Q. Okay. The paragraphs on alcohol, intoxicants, 23 firearms and weapons, and fireworks, those don't really 24 apply, do they? 25 A. I had no report that any of those were 0095 01 involved. 02 Q. All right. Do you see anything in GKA Local, 03 Exhibit 48, any policy that you believe, based upon 04 what you know, gave a justification for the -- for 05 telling the parents not to distribute any literature? 06 A. Well, under GKA Legal, we talked about whether 07 or not this pertained to other than student classes. 08 And as I said before, with the exception that if a 09 principal or whoever was in charge of the meeting felt 10 that it could become disruptive, I suspect that it 11 could be something that they would be concerned about. 12 But as I've said before, I was not there, and I did not 13 hear of any reports of these activities. 14 Q. Okay. 15 (Exhibit No. 49 marked.) 16 Q. Let me hand you what I have marked as 17 Exhibit 49. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. It's a two-page document. It's labeled with 20 our document control Nos. 1312 and 1313. I believe 21 it's FMA Local. If you would, take a look at that. 22 A. (Witness reviews documents.) 23 Q. Is that correct? Is this the FMA Local? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And it has an issue date of 2/8/99; is that 0096 01 right? 02 A. Yes, it does. 03 Q. Now, do you know what the exact policy FMA 04 Local was in August of 1998? 05 A. No. 06 Q. Does your assistant superintendent in charge 07 of policies keep a historical record of the policies 08 that were actually in force at various times? 09 A. I'd have to answer that I don't know for 10 sure, but I would think that a record of policies have 11 been kept. Now, how far back we go, I don't know. But 12 I would think that more recent changes would be kept 13 and would be on the system, yes. 14 Q. Let's look at nonschool materials 15 distribution, that paragraph. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. This refers to the District's classrooms 18 during the school day or provided for the limited 19 purpose of delivering instruction to students in the 20 courses and subjects in which they enrolled; is that 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Classrooms should not be used for distribution 24 of materials over which the school does not exercise 25 control; is that correct? 0097 01 A. That's what -- yes, sir, that's what it says. 02 Q. Now, that so far doesn't apply to a 03 parent-teacher meeting occurring during non-curriculum 04 times of the evening, does it? 05 A. No. 06 Q. It goes on to say, hallways are provided for 07 limited purpose of facilitating the movement of 08 students between classes, allowing access to assigned 09 lookers. 10 And it says, hallways shall not be used for 11 distribution of any materials of which the school does 12 not exercise control. That again refers to curriculum 13 and while -- the time the students are there and during 14 classroom times; is that right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. It indicates in the next paragraph that each 17 school campus shall designate an area where materials 18 over which the school does not exercise control that 19 have been approved for distribution to students, as 20 provided below, may be made available to students or 21 distributed to students in accordance with the time, 22 place, and manner restrictions developed and approved 23 by the campus principal; is that correct? 24 A. That's what it says, yes. 25 Q. Now, that's talking about distribution of 0098 01 materials primarily during the school day to students, 02 correct? 03 A. Yes. There may be times when -- it depends 04 upon where the materials are placed. It may be there 05 for students to take during the day -- or even before 06 or after school. 07 Q. Now, these first two paragraphs that I've 08 read, it doesn't -- has not yet referenced a 09 parent-to-parent distribution, has it? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Then it gets into the paragraph on prior 12 review. And it states, all material over which the 13 school does not exercise editorial control that is 14 intended for distribution to students shall be 15 submitted for prior review according to the following 16 procedures. 17 Now, this whole paragraph, according to your 18 policy, is really talking about materials that are 19 intended for distribution to students, isn't it, 20 Doctor? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And it does not reference distribution to 23 parents or distribution from one parent to another 24 parent during a non-curriculum time period, does it? 25 MR. CRAWFORD: I'll object to the extent 0099 01 the question is misleading. 02 Q. Am I correct? 03 A. Would you please say it again? 04 Q. Let me state it again. 05 A. Sure. 06 MR. BUNDREN: And Counsel can have his 07 objection, if he wants. 08 MR. CRAWFORD: I appreciate that. Thank 09 you. 10 Q. My point is that the prior review paragraph of 11 FMA Local does not reference a non-curriculum 12 parent-to-parent distribution situation, does it? 13 MR. CRAWFORD: Same objection. 14 A. I don't see any mention of parent-to-parent 15 distribution. 16 Q. In fact, it specifically states, intended for 17 distribution to students, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And that type of material is the type of 20 material that has to go through pre-review -- prior 21 review. And then these four paragraphs on the next 22 page state those procedures, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And, in fact, if you look at the four specific 25 paragraphs that deal with the procedures, paragraph 3 0100 01 says, the student may appeal the disapproval; is that 02 correct? 03 A. Which number are you reading from? 04 Q. No. 3 on page 2. It starts off with, the 05 student may appeal. 06 A. Yes, that's what it says. 07 Q. In fact, in any of these four paragraphs 08 talking about procedures, it doesn't reference the 09 parent, does it? 10 A. No. 11 Q. And then it closes -- the beginning of the 12 sentence with the term again, students who fail to 13 follow these procedures shall have disciplinary action 14 etc., right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Are you aware of any other policy of the 17 District that specifically addressed the question of 18 parent-to-parent distribution of materials while on the 19 school campus during non-curriculum times? 20 A. There may be some, but I'm not aware -- at 21 this point, I don't know of any. We've mentioned GKA 22 as the one that references that. There may be others, 23 but I'm not aware of any right now. 24 Q. Now, despite the fact that your FMA Local 25 policy does not reference parent-to-parent distribution 0101 01 during non-curriculum times, do you still feel that the 02 parents who were there at the parent math night and 03 wanted to distribute materials were, according to your 04 policies and practices and customs, required to get 05 preapproval? 06 A. Yes, I believe that. 07 Q. Even though the policy doesn't specifically 08 reference parent-to-parent distribution? 09 A. I believe policy GKA Local references that. 10 Q. Okay. That's Exhibit 27? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Okay. So that's the policy you would rely 13 upon; is that right? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Let me go back to that one. So the policy 16 that you believe is the one applicable to the 17 Plaintiffs' attempted distribution during the 18 parent-teacher math nights that we've been talking 19 about is the paragraph, distribution of publications in 20 GKA Local, which is part of Exhibit 27? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. That's the policy that you believe is 23 applicable to what the Plaintiffs attempted to do? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And that the school officials were justified, 0102 01 pursuant to the District's policy, of prohibiting their 02 distribution to other parents? 03 A. I do. 04 Q. By the way, let me ask you to do this. If you 05 find a policy in the school district's policies that 06 defines the term persons or groups not associated with 07 the school before we go to trial, I'd like for you to 08 let your lawyers know that because I can't find it. 09 And if you find it, I'd like to know that before we go 10 to trial. Will you do that? 11 MR. CRAWFORD: I'll object to that to the 12 extent it requires Dr. Otto to do something the Rules 13 don't require. If the Rules require that, then he 14 certainly will. 15 Q. Well, I'm making that request because it 16 appears to me that there is no definition in the 17 District's policies that defines person or that defines 18 groups not associated with the school or persons not 19 associated with the school. And that appears to me to 20 be a very important part of this whole case. 21 And if there is a definition or a description 22 in your policies, I'd like to know about it. And I'm 23 making that request. 24 MR. BUNDREN: Is that fair enough? 25 MR. CRAWFORD: Again, I'll -- without 0103 01 making the same commentary again, if the Rules require 02 it, we'll certainly comply. 03 Q. Is that fair enough, Dr. Otto? Is that a fair 04 request? 05 A. Yes, it's a fair request, but -- 06 Q. Thank you. 07 A. -- I just want to make sure I do it legally. 08 (Exhibit No. 50 marked.) 09 Q. Let me show you Exhibit No. 50. 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Exhibit 50 is a newspaper article with a 12 picture of Mr. Kirke holding up a sign that states, 13 PISD officials will not allow me to pass out fliers or 14 circulate a petition requesting a conventional math 15 choice at this meeting. For more information, see me 16 after the meeting or call the -- and it says -- there's 17 a number, a phone number, okay? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Did you learn at some point that school 20 officials had told Mr. Kirke that he could not display 21 this sign before and after the parent-teacher math 22 nights? 23 A. You know, I don't recollect when they told me 24 about that. And I don't know how soon after that 25 meeting this was in the paper, because that might have 0104 01 been my first knowledge that Mr. Kirke had this sign. 02 So I may have been made aware, but I cannot recollect 03 who did it or if I was. I did see the picture though. 04 And I think it -- and it must have been published in 05 the paper shortly after that meeting. 06 Q. When you saw the newspaper article or it came 07 to your attention that school officials had told 08 Mr. Kirke he could not display his sign, what did you 09 do? 10 A. I can't remember specifically. I don't 11 remember. I can't recall if I did anything with regard 12 to this particular photograph or knowledge that he was 13 asked to remove the sign. 14 Q. Did you follow up with your administrators and 15 your assistant superintendents and your principals to 16 determine whether, in fact, that did occur? 17 A. Yes, I'm sure I did. 18 Q. And what did you conclude? 19 A. That they acted appropriately in asking him 20 not to display the sign during the meeting. 21 Q. Could he display the sign before the meeting? 22 A. On school grounds? 23 Q. Yes, like outside the door of the meeting 24 room, out in the foyer or the hallway. Could he stand 25 there and display the sign? 0105 01 A. I think probably if the principal felt -- or 02 whoever was in charge of the meeting felt that it could 03 be disruptive, they might ask Mr. Kirke to put it down. 04 I don't know if he had been -- to be honest with you, I 05 don't remember if he was allowed to display it out in 06 the hallway or after the meeting. I don't know. 07 Q. If he was -- let's assume that the evidence in 08 the case establishes that Mr. Kirke was not permitted 09 to hold his sign where other parents could see it 10 before the meeting started, out in the hallway or in 11 the foyer to the building or -- not in the meeting, but 12 outside, would that be appropriate for -- appropriate 13 conduct for your school officials? 14 MR. CRAWFORD: Object to the extent it 15 assumes facts not in evidence. 16 A. Again, I would have to defer to the discretion 17 of the principal. If he or she felt that it was a 18 disruptive -- of a disruptive nature then, yes, I think 19 they could ask that it not be displayed. 20 Q. Any other reason that you can think of to 21 justify asking Mr. Kirke not to display it other than 22 disruption? 23 A. The fact that the meeting was sponsored and 24 conducted by the District, whether -- it brings into 25 question whether or not this particular sign would need 0106 01 the prior approval requirement standard. 02 I could see where a principal might even 03 perceive the sign to have to come under that 04 requirement as well. 05 Q. Do you believe that Mr. Kirke's sign needed 06 prior approval before he could hold it in the hallway 07 outside the meeting? 08 A. I think it could require that, yes. 09 Q. What is the basis of your belief? 10 A. The fact that the District was sponsoring and 11 conducting the meeting, and that what Mr. Kirke was 12 attempting to do was not part of the agenda. And so it 13 could be construed as needing prior approval. So 14 that's the best response I can give. 15 Q. So if the school's principal and your 16 administrators who were present that night, in fact, 17 did tell Mr. Kirke, put your sign down, you can't hold 18 it, I don't want any other parents to see it, if that, 19 in fact, is true, it would be your position they did 20 not violate any District policy in doing that? 21 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, assumes facts 22 not in evidence. 23 A. I believe I said that. If they believed at 24 the time that it -- in their opinion, that it required 25 prior approval, yes, I believe they acted accordingly. 0107 01 Q. Okay. And you wouldn't take any kind of 02 disciplinary action against a school official for 03 telling Mr. Kirke to put his sign down? 04 A. No. 05 Q. Other than Exhibit 27, GKA Local, that we have 06 been talking about today, are you aware of any other 07 policy that would be applicable to instructions by the 08 school officials for Mr. Kirke to put his sign down? 09 A. There may be some, but I'm not aware of any 10 right now. 11 Q. Did you feel that Exhibit 27 and the 12 distribution of publications section of GKA Local 13 that we've been talking about would be the 14 justification from the policy for the instruction for 15 Mr. Kirke to put his sign down? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. BUNDREN: Why don't we take a quick 18 break. 19 (Recess from 4:16 to 4:24 p.m.) 20 Q. Let me hand you what's been marked as 21 Exhibit 20. 22 MR. BUNDREN: And do you have this 23 that you could show him? 24 MR. CRAWFORD: August 18? 25 MR. BUNDREN: August 18. 0108 01 MR. CRAWFORD: Let me see if I have that. 02 It's always the last one. Let's make sure it's the 03 same. 04 MR. BUNDREN: That's it. 05 Q. Doctor, let me hand you wha