0001 01 IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS 01 FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT 02 02 03 CELIA J. CHIU; DENISE BROWN; * 03 VERONICA C. JENKINS; DENISE * 04 KIRKE; ALFRED G. KIRKE; AND * 04 KENNETH R. JOHNSON * 05 * 05 Plaintiffs/Appellees, * 06 * 06 VS. * 07 * 07 PLANO INDEPENDENT SCHOOL * 08 DISTRICT, ET AL. * 08 * 09 Defendants, * 09 * CIVIL ACTION NO. 10 JAMES DAVIS, DR., PISD CENTRAL * 00-40613 10 CLUSTER AREA ASSISTANT * 11 SUPERINTENDENT; MARILYN BROOKS, * 11 ASSOCIATE SUPERINTENDENT FOR * 12 CURRICULUM AND INSTRUCTIONS; * 12 JAMES WOHLGEHAGEN, DR.; * 13 ROXANNE BURLESON, PRINCIPAL * 13 HAGGARD MIDDLE SCHOOL; CORKY * 14 CRISWELL, PRINCIPAL HENDRICK * 14 MIDDLE SCHOOL; BEVERLY SELLERS, * 15 PRINCIPAL WILSON MIDDLE SCHOOL, * 15 * 16 Defendants/Appellants. * 16 17 18 19 ******************************************** 20 ORAL DEPOSITION OF 21 DONELLA GREEN 22 OCTOBER 5, 2000 23 ******************************************** 24 25 0002 01 ORAL DEPOSITION OF DONELLA GREEN, produced as a 02 witness at the instance of the Plaintiffs, and duly 03 sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered cause 04 on the 5th day of October,, 2000, from 9:19 a.m. to 05 11:31 a.m., before Sunny Schaen, a CSR in and for the 06 State of Texas, reported stenographically, at the 07 offices of the Plano Independent School District, 08 2700 West 15th Street, Plano, Texas 75075, pursuant to 09 the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and the provision 10 stated on the record. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0003 01 A P P E A R A N C E S 02 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 02 Mr. William Charles Bundren 03 Attorney at Law 03 P. O. Box 702647 04 Dallas, Texas 75370 04 (972) 630-3555 05 05 06 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: 06 Mr. Richard M. Abernathy 07 ABERNATHY ROEDER BOYD & JOPLIN, P.C. 07 1700 Redbud Boulevard 08 Suite 300 08 P.O. Box 1210 09 McKinney, Texas 75070-1210 09 (214) 544-4000 10 10 11 ALSO PRESENT: Mrs. Ronni Jenkins 11 12 12 13 13 14 14 15 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 0004 01 I N D E X 01 02 WITNESS PAGE 02 DONELLA GREEN 03 03 EXAMINATION 04 BY: MR. BUNDREN 5 04 05 05 06 EXHIBITS INDEX 06 07 EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED 07 08 71 Affidavit of Donella Green 92 08 09 09 10 10 11 11 12 12 13 13 14 14 15 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 0005 01 P R O C E E D I N G S 02 REPORTER'S NOTE: The following was stated on the 03 record in the deposition of Marilyn Brooks, and by 04 agreement of all parties will also apply for this 05 deposition. 06 * * * * * * 07 MR. BUNDREN: Do you want to take this 08 under the Rules? 09 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes. 10 * * * * * * 11 DONELLA GREEN, 12 having being first duly sworn, testified as follows: 13 EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. BUNDREN: 15 Q. Would you state your name for the record, 16 please. 17 A. Donella Green. 18 Q. Ms. Green, my name is Charles Bundren. I'm an 19 attorney, and I represent some of the parents that have 20 filed a lawsuit against the school district, and I 21 believe you were named as a party involving the 22 connected math program and some activities with some 23 fliers and things. Do you understand that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. Have you ever had your deposition taken 0006 01 before? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. How many times? 04 A. Once. 05 Q. And what was that in relation to? 06 A. One of our parents asked me to do that to talk 07 about the school and that it was a good school. He was 08 trying to bring his daughter to Texas. 09 Q. Some kind of a family issue with the parents? 10 A. In Plano, uh-huh. 11 Q. All right. Have you ever given a deposition 12 before or after that? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Ever testified live under oath in a courtroom? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. How many times did you do that? 17 A. I think I did it once. 18 Q. And what did that relate to? 19 A. I was a worker -- I can't remember what 20 they're called -- but a court liaison where I would go 21 meet with families. And I can't remember what it was. 22 It's been a couple of years. But they would ask us to 23 meet with the families and gather some information. 24 And it was like through an organization that helps 25 service the courts. 0007 01 Q. Now, the deposition today is just as if we 02 were in front of a court and jury at the time we take 03 the case to trial. You understand that the court 04 reporter is going to take down your testimony and it's 05 going to be produced in a little booklet format. 06 You'll have a chance to review it, read it, and sign 07 it. Do you understand that? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Okay. And you understand that this is an 10 informal proceeding. If you need to take a break for 11 some reason, if you'll let me know, I'll try to get to 12 a point to where I can break. 13 I'd like to have some agreements with you 14 before we get started today, that if you don't hear my 15 question, would you ask me to repeat it before you try 16 to answer it? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. If you don't understand it, would you ask me 19 to clarify it before you try to answer? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. What is your social security number? 22 A. ***-**-****. 23 Q. What is your driver's license number? 24 A. *********. 25 Q. Have you ever been convicted of a crime? 0008 01 A. No. 02 Q. What is your date of birth? 03 A. 8/12/59. 04 Q. Where were you born? 05 A. Chelsea, Massachusetts. 06 Q. Where do you currently reside? 07 A. Plano, Texas. 08 Q. What is your address there? 09 A. 2805 Silkwood Court, Plano, 75074. 10 Q. How are you currently employed? 11 A. I'm the principal of Armstrong Middle School 12 in Plano. 13 Q. Where did you graduate from high school? 14 A. Roosevelt High School in San Antonio. 15 Q. What year was that? 16 A. 1978. 17 Q. And where did you enroll in college? 18 A. North Texas. 19 Q. What year did you enroll there? 20 A. Let me see. I moved -- I started at Southwest 21 Texas and then ended up there, so that was -- I'm not 22 exactly sure, but maybe 1981, somewhere around there. 23 Q. Did you get a degree from North Texas? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What degree did you get? 0009 01 A. A got a bachelor's of science in elementary 02 education with a minor in biology, and a master's in 03 administration, and a mid-management certificate. 04 Q. Did you get that all at one time? 05 A. I graduated, and then two years later, I had 06 my -- two and a half years later, I got my master's. 07 Q. When did you get your bachelor's? 08 A. 1987. 09 Q. When did you received your master's? 10 A. 1990. 11 Q. And your mid-management certificate was 12 received when? 13 A. 1990. 14 Q. And when did you receive your classroom 15 teacher's certificate? 16 A. 1987. 17 Q. Do you hold any other certificates from the 18 Texas Education Agency? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Any other degrees beyond your master's? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Have you ever published any books? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Published any articles? 25 A. No. 0010 01 Q. Okay. When you received your teacher's 02 certificate, where did you go to work? 03 A. Carrollton-Farmers Branch ISD at Sheffield 04 Intermediate. 05 Q. What year was that? 06 A. 1987. 07 Q. And did you teach -- were you a classroom 08 teacher there? 09 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. You need to answer with words. 11 A. I'm sorry. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. What grade level did you teach? 13 A. 5th and 6th. 14 Q. What subject matters? 15 A. I taught language arts, math, and I believe 16 one science class. Then later I was assigned a 17 computer class. 18 Q. How long did you stay with the 19 Carrollton-Farmers Branch school district? 20 A. Three years. 21 Q. And then where did you go? 22 A. I went to Lewisville ISD. 23 Q. What year did you go there? 24 A. 1990. 25 Q. What position did you take there? 0011 01 A. Assistant principal at Griffin Middle School. 02 Q. How long did you remain in that position? 03 A. Three years. 04 Q. Until 1993? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. Where did you go then? 07 A. I came to Plano. 08 Q. What position? 09 A. I was the assistant principal at Schimelpfenig 10 Middle School. 11 Q. How long did you stay in that position? 12 A. About three years. 13 Q. In 1996 did you take another position? 14 A. Armstrong Middle School. 15 Q. What position did you take there? 16 A. I was principal. 17 Q. You've been in that position since 1996? 18 A. This is my fourth year. 19 Q. What professional associations, educational 20 type of associations are you a member of? 21 A. The TASP. 22 Q. What does that stand for? 23 A. Texas Association of Secondary Principals; 24 TMSA, Texas Association of Middle School; ATPE, it's a 25 teacher organization. There's one more. I can't 0012 01 remember the last one. 02 Q. From time to time do you receive educational 03 materials and information from the associations that 04 you're a member of -- 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. -- within the profession? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. And from time to time do you attend 09 conferences on education and conferences on teaching 10 and continuing education from time to time? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. Do you attend TEA conferences? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you attend any of the TASB conferences? 15 A. I have gone to one -- one session within a 16 conference, but not a whole conference. 17 Q. Of TASB? 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. At these conferences, do you learn about 20 school district policies? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you learn about updates on legal issues 23 involving school districts? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Do you learn about new policies that have to 0013 01 go into place because of court cases and changes that 02 are going on in law? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. Okay. Do you feel like you keep pretty well 05 up to speed on all that? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. Now, does the District, the Plano Independent 08 School District, have any in-house training that you 09 receive? In addition to the TASB and TEA conferences, 10 do you receive any training here at the administration 11 building or from the District on updating on policies? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Does the District have any kind of a 14 requirement that persons in your position, such as a 15 principal, have to have so many hours of training 16 updated every year or periodically to keep your 17 position? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. How many hours do you have to have in 20 additional training? 21 A. I think it's approximately 30 or thereabouts. 22 Q. Thirty a year? 23 A. Or about. I'm not exactly sure on that. 24 Q. Okay. Have you fulfilled those hours by going 25 to the conferences, the TEA conferences and the 0014 01 association conferences? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Now, you mentioned the Texas Association of 04 Secondary Principals. Do they have conferences? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. Do you attend those? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. You also mentioned Texas Association of Middle 09 School Principals. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do they have conferences? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And do you they attend those? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And then ATPE, do they have conferences? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you attend those. 18 A. No. 19 Q. So you attend the Texas Association of 20 Secondary Principals, Texas Association of Middle 21 School conferences, TEA conferences, and sometimes the 22 TASB conferences? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. All right. When you came to work for Plano in 25 1990 -- let me be sure that's right -- no, 1993 -- when 0015 01 you came to work for Plano in 1993 as an assistant 02 principal, what did you understand your duties and 03 responsibilities to be in that position? 04 A. Since I answered to the principal, anything he 05 assigned to me. 06 Q. What did you actually do? 07 A. I think most everything: scheduling, meeting 08 with teachers, parents, students, duty rosters, 09 interviews, budget, contracts, meetings. I'm sure 10 there are others, I just don't recall what they were. 11 Q. As an assistant principal, did you from time 12 to time have meetings after the school hour at the 13 school with parents? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you have parent meetings where parents 16 were invited to come? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Does the Plano Independent School District 19 encourage parents' participation in the school -- 20 schooling of their children? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do they encourage the parents to have input in 23 the school? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Do they encourage parents to be active in the 0016 01 school? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Do you personally think that's a good idea? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. You think it's important that parents be 06 involved in their children's education? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Do you think it's important that they work 09 with them on their homework assignments and the 10 curriculum they're working on? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you think it's important for the parents to 13 know what their children are doing? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. To understand the curriculum? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And to be involved in working with the school 18 to see that the kids understand the curriculum? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you encourage those type of things, don't 21 you? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And every opportunity that you get, you 24 encourage parents to be at the school, to participate 25 in the school activities, to volunteer their time, and 0017 01 to be active in their child's education, don't you? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. What is your understanding of the Plano 04 Independent School District's policies with respect to 05 parents participating in parents meetings that are 06 called by the school district? 07 A. Oh, I think they have an opportunity to 08 participate in those meetings, but it depends on the 09 meeting. That's hard to say because we have so many 10 different types of meetings in the school. Sometimes 11 they're just informational where we're presenting some 12 information. Sometimes it's more collaborative, like 13 on an SBIC committee. It depends on the role of the 14 committee. 15 Q. From time to time, are parents -- let's move 16 on to Armstrong where you're now principal. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. And let's just talk about Armstrong over the 19 last, say, three, four years that you've been 20 principal. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. You haven't seen since 1993 a change in the 23 District's policy concerning the desire for parental 24 input into education, have you? 25 A. Yes, I have. 0018 01 Q. Have you? 02 A. On the -- are you talking about literature or 03 are you just talking about policy? I guess I need 04 clarification on that. 05 Q. Both. 06 A. Somehow I knew you were going to say that. 07 Not on -- as far as policies, I believe policies are 08 reviewed continuously. And there are often changes or 09 additions or supplements, and we get those on the Web 10 site. 11 Q. Okay. Have there been changes in the 12 District's policy concerning parents? 13 A. Oh, no. 14 Q. Concerning literature? 15 A. Not that I'm aware of. That's probably a 16 better answer. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. Because there could have been changes I'm just 19 not aware of. 20 Q. All right. What other changes have there 21 been? 22 A. The only other one that I knew of recently was 23 the change in passing out literature. It went, I 24 believe, from 24 hours approval to 48 or a longer 25 period of time. We went to three days. 0019 01 Q. I'm sorry? 02 A. I think it went from a 24-hour period to three 03 days. 04 Q. Now, what do you mean by passing out 05 literature, the change in that policy, as you 06 understand it? 07 A. You mean the change -- just what I said, that 08 I believe it went from being a 24-hour period of time 09 that the principal can review that information to a 10 three-day period. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. But like I said, I'm not 100 percent sure on 13 that. 14 Q. What's your understanding of when that change 15 went into effect? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. Within the last couple of years? Last year? 18 A. I don't know. 19 Q. But at one time when you came to work for the 20 District, was it a 24-hour review policy? 21 A. I believe so. 22 Q. And now you believe it's a three-day review 23 policy? 24 A. I'm sorry? 25 Q. Now you believe it's a three-day review 0020 01 policy? 02 A. I believe. 03 Q. Now, tell me what you understand the 04 District's policy to be at the middle schools, if 05 there's a difference -- I don't know if there is or 06 not, but if there is -- with respect to distribution of 07 literature by parents. 08 A. I believe the policy states that they have to 09 have prior approval from the principal, and they're 10 given a 24-hour -- during the time that I came to the 11 District, they were given a 24-hour time frame. And if 12 I didn't respond, then it was not to be passed out. 13 Q. Kind of a pocket veto? 14 A. I guess. 15 Q. And you now think that the changes went from 16 24 to three days? 17 A. I believe. I'm not positive. 18 Q. Let me be a little more specific on my 19 question and ask your understanding of the policy, if 20 you understand it to be any different. 21 Is there any difference when a parent wants to 22 pass literature to another parent at a meeting of the 23 parents after hours at the school, or does the same 24 policy apply? 25 A. I don't know. 0021 01 Q. You don't know? 02 A. Huh-uh, I don't. 03 Q. You don't know if it's the same policy or you 04 don't know what the policy is or -- 05 A. I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. 06 Q. Okay. Let me clarify it for you. 07 A. Okay. 08 Q. Because I told you I would. 09 A. Okay. 10 Q. Let's assume that rather than distributing 11 literature -- a parent distributing literature to 12 students or distributing literature to just whoever may 13 be on the school campus during the school day -- 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. -- that there is a meeting of the parents at 16 the school to discuss a curriculum or to discuss an 17 issue at the school. It's a parent meeting, no -- 18 students aren't there, it's not during the class day, 19 it's not during the class hours. It's after hours in 20 the evening. The parents are at the school. What do 21 you understand the policy to be -- 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. -- concerning the distribution by one parent 24 to another parent of literature in an after-hours 25 meeting? 0022 01 A. Are you saying that the school has instigated 02 the meeting, or is that the context you're using that 03 in? 04 Q. Either the school has instigated -- let's say 05 the school has instigated the meeting. Let's say the 06 school has invited the parents to come to a meeting -- 07 a parent meeting to discuss an issue at the school. It 08 could be a curriculum -- 09 A. I believe the same policy would apply. They 10 have to have the prior approval. 11 Q. That's -- 12 A. That's what the policy states. 13 Q. It's your understanding, then, that before a 14 parent can distribute to another parent -- 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. -- at the school at any time, either during 17 the school day or after the school day or in the 18 evenings, that the parent has got to get prior approval 19 of the principal? 20 A. That is my understanding of it. 21 Q. And it doesn't make any difference that the 22 parent is making a distribution to other parents as 23 opposed to making a distribution to students? 24 A. That's my understanding. 25 Q. It's your understanding of the policy? 0023 01 A. Right. 02 Q. Okay. Do you enforce that policy? 03 A. I try to. 04 Q. If you saw a parent at a parent-teacher 05 meeting -- a group of parents, you know, where you 06 have -- do you have meetings like that where parents 07 are invited to come to the school? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. To discuss topics? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And if you saw a parent at that meeting 12 handing out fliers to other parents, would you stop 13 them? 14 A. If they had not had prior approval, I would 15 ask them to do it outside off campus. 16 Q. Off the property? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. Which means not in the parking lot, not in the 19 driveway, but off the school property? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you wouldn't even permit them to 22 distribute them in the parking lot to each other if you 23 knew what was going on? 24 A. If I knew that, yes. 25 Q. So if you saw parents coming to the school 0024 01 meeting and they were out in a parking lot of the 02 school and they jump out of their cars and one parent 03 handed another parent a flier and you saw that, you 04 would tell them not to do that, that that's a violation 05 of policy? 06 A. My understanding of the policy is it's not to 07 be -- it's not to be within the school. So that's my 08 understanding of the policy. 09 Q. It's not to be on school property? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Okay. Let me give you another example. Let's 12 say that -- do you have dances for the students at your 13 school? 14 A. Yes, if you can call it that. It's more like 15 rocking. 16 Q. Middle school dances, all right. After hours, 17 say, on a Friday night, parents bring their children -- 18 your children don't drive yet, right? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Your students don't drive, so most of the time 21 the parents would bring them to that meeting? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. And that would be an after-hours school 24 dance, okay, say, on Friday night. And the parents are 25 driving through the drop-off area and dropping their 0025 01 kids off. 02 If you saw a parent out there handing out 03 fliers to the parents as they came through the 04 drive-by, you'd stop that under the policy? 05 A. If it wasn't on school property. We have an 06 unusual -- the way our property is, we -- there's a bus 07 lane right in front. Our school property is here, bus 08 line, and then there's public property. So they're 09 very -- I mean, they're almost in the same -- we 10 don't -- we're right smack in the middle of a 11 neighborhood, and so we're -- the public and school is 12 very close together as far as where the parents are 13 dropping the students off. 14 Q. The bus lane is a lane that comes through the 15 school property for the buses to unload? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. And that's school property, right? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. So if you saw parents standing out there and 20 handing out fliers to other parents -- not to students, 21 but to other parents -- would that violate the policy 22 as you understand it? 23 A. I believe so if it's on school property. 24 Q. Okay. It wouldn't matter -- I mean, they 25 could be handing out a flier critical of a book that 0026 01 you're using at your school if they didn't like the 02 subject matter of the book and they wanted other 03 parents to know that there was some objection to the 04 subject matter, would that matter? 05 A. If they are on school property and they 06 haven't gotten prior approval, then they don't need to 07 be passing it out. 08 Q. Okay. Even to other parents? 09 A. That's correct. 10 Q. That's your understanding of the way the 11 policy works? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. Now, have you received any specific training 14 on that type of a policy, distribution of literature 15 policy in the schools? Have you received any training 16 on that? 17 A. Not before the lawsuit was filed. 18 Q. Have you received some training on it since 19 the lawsuit was filed? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Who conducted that training? 22 A. I don't exactly remember. I remember at a 23 principal's meeting, our east cluster superintendent 24 went over passing out literature and explained the 25 policy. 0027 01 Q. In depth? 02 A. I believe it was him. Now, I'm not saying for 03 sure. I'm just -- I think that's who it was, but I 04 know it was at one of the principal's meetings. 05 Q. Who is your east cluster superintendent 06 that -- 07 A. Jeff Bailey. 08 Q. Jeff Bailey? 09 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. And it was at a principal's meeting? 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. Is that right? 13 A. Yes. I'm sorry. 14 Q. What did Mr. Bailey say at that principal's 15 meeting, as best you can recall, about the District's 16 policy on parent-to-parent distribution of literature? 17 A. I don't believe that that's the way it was 18 worded, but as best I can recall, they just went over 19 the policy. They handed out the policy and just went 20 over it. I couldn't tell you exactly how it was 21 stated. 22 Q. And did he describe for you or tell you how to 23 interpret the policy? 24 A. No. We just went over the policy. 25 Q. Just read it? 0028 01 A. We went over it, yes. 02 Q. Called it to your attention? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. And this was after the lawsuit was filed and 05 after you were served? 06 A. No. It was after the lawsuit was filed and 07 before I was served. 08 Q. Okay. Sometime -- 09 A. In between there. 10 Q. Right at the initiation of the lawsuit? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. So it would have been sometime in the second 13 or third quarter of 1999? 14 A. I can't say. I'm sorry. 15 Q. Now, prior to this training that you received 16 from Jeff Bailey on the distribution of literature 17 policy, had you ever received any training or ever been 18 in a meeting where distribution of literature policy 19 was discussed? 20 A. Not that I can recall. 21 Q. What policy was Mr. Bailey going over? Do you 22 recall the name of the policy? 23 A. No. That was a while ago. I don't recall 24 that. 25 Q. Do you have a copy of the policies in your 0029 01 office? 02 A. They're actually -- the hard copy that we were 03 given when I first came to the District was in a huge 04 big blue binder. And since then, since we now have the 05 Web site, they just update the Web site. 06 We are welcome to go to the Web site and print 07 it out. I do not. I just know where it is on the Web 08 site. You can go and look up the policy. 09 Q. Okay. How would you go look it up? I mean, 10 how would you try to find it if you don't know the 11 number? 12 A. Well, it's bookmarked, I mean, on mine. So I 13 can just click on it. But I just bookmarked it. It's 14 the Web site in Plano for policies. 15 Q. You mean the Web site for the Plano 16 Independent School district is bookmarked? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. But the policies are pretty thick, aren't 19 they? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. There's a lot of policies? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. So once you got into those policies on 24 the Web site, how would you find what dealt with 25 parent-to-parent distribution of literature? 0030 01 A. Well, there are categories you can go and 02 click on for the -- you just kind of have to scroll and 03 see what category you're looking for and then look it 04 up. 05 Q. Now, do you recall Mr. Bailey, when he went 06 over this policy after the lawsuit was filed, telling 07 you that parent-to-parent distribution at a 08 parent-teacher meeting after hours would violate 09 policy? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 Q. You don't recall the specifics of anything he 12 said? 13 A. No. I just remember getting a copy of that 14 policy and going over it. 15 Q. Let me ask you to look at Exhibit 64. Those 16 should be in order, and they're the original exhibits. 17 If you would, take a look at that. 18 A. (Witness complies.) 19 Q. Exhibit 64 is a copy of Judge Brown's May 5, 20 2000, order. Have you seen this before? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. When did you see it? 23 A. When we met with -- we saw it before we met 24 with Richard, but then again when we met with Richard. 25 Q. In preparation for your deposition? 0031 01 A. That's correct. 02 Q. Okay. Now, this order by Judge Brown is 03 dated, on the last page, May 4, 2000. I think it's 04 File stamped May 5, 2000. 05 Since then, has there been any training by the 06 Plano Independent School District of its principals to 07 deal with parent-to-parent distribution of literature? 08 A. As I mentioned earlier, I don't really know 09 when that date was. I can't tell you when it was, the 10 time frame, so I don't -- 11 Q. I think you told me it was after the lawsuit 12 was filed but before you were served? 13 A. And I don't know -- I don't know exactly when 14 that was. Since this has come out, no. 15 Q. That was my question. 16 A. Okay. I'm sorry. 17 Q. Yes. Since Judge Brown's order has come out 18 last May, has there been any additional training? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you know of any changes that the District 21 has made to their policy to comply with the order? 22 A. Not that I'm aware of. I don't know. 23 Q. So you have seen the order. I assume you've 24 read it? 25 A. Uh-huh, yes. 0032 01 Q. But you haven't received any training from the 02 District relative to the order? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. Is that correct? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. If you would, while we're looking at this, 07 would you look at Exhibit 27. Tell you what, why don't 08 you pull out of those, if you would, Exhibit 1, 09 Exhibit 27, Exhibit 26, and Exhibits 47, 48, and 49. 10 Do you have those pulled out of the stack? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. All right. If you look at Exhibit 27 first, 13 this has been previously identified at the 14 superintendent's deposition, Dr. Otto, as GKA Local. 15 And it has a paragraph entitled distribution of 16 publications. Do you see that? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Is this the policy that you were referring to 19 on parent-to-parent distribution of literature? 20 A. It's an FM number. 21 Q. Do you know what it is? 22 A. No, not by memory I don't. 23 Q. All right. This policy states that duplicated 24 written or printed materials, handbills, photographs, 25 pictures, films, tapes, or other visual or auditory 0033 01 materials shall not be sold, circulated, or distributed 02 by persons or groups not associated with the school on 03 any school premises in the District unless they have 04 received permission in accordance with FMA Local? 05 A. That's correct. 06 Q. Is that the way that you understand the policy 07 of the District to be? 08 A. Are you asking me if this is the policy that 09 I'm familiar with? 10 Q. No. I'm asking if it's your understanding 11 that what I just read is the policy? Not 12 necessarily -- you told me you couldn't say that this 13 was the exact policy. 14 A. Well, I'm assuming it is. I'm not -- I mean, 15 I'm assuming that this is it. 16 Q. Why are you assuming that? 17 A. Well, because I just -- I'm just trying to 18 remember what the other one was. But I do -- I'm 19 reading that, and that appears to be the policy. 20 Q. As you understand it? 21 A. As I understand it. There's another one, 22 though, somewhere. 23 Q. Okay. In this particular paragraph of GKA 24 Local -- 25 A. Uh-huh. 0034 01 Q. -- what is prohibited is the distribution by 02 persons or groups not associated with the school; is 03 that correct? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. Are you aware of any definitions in the 06 District's policies or any written guidelines that you 07 were given from the District as a principal that allow 08 you or give you direction on interpreting what the word 09 persons means? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Are you aware of any guidelines, definitions, 12 or direction in writing given to you by the District 13 that define for you what the term not associated with 14 the school means? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did Mr. Bailey, in his training session with 17 you after the lawsuit was filed, go over what persons 18 meant for purposes of this policy? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did he go over or explain to the principals 21 what the term not associated with the school meant? 22 A. I believe there was some conversation about 23 that, but I don't -- I couldn't verbatim tell you it 24 was something to the degree that -- my interpretation 25 was that if it was an employee by the District, that is 0035 01 the association. Now, I -- I don't recall exactly how 02 it was said at the meeting. 03 Q. And you didn't have any handouts? 04 A. Just of the policy. He handed us the policy. 05 Q. And no -- nothing to give you guidelines on 06 how to interpret the policy? 07 A. No. 08 Q. And you're not aware of any guidelines given 09 on the Web site or by the District to you at any time 10 that defines for you what not associated with the 11 school means? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Let me ask you, do you think that students are 14 associated with the school? 15 A. It depends on what capacity you're asking. I 16 mean, they go to school. 17 Q. Okay. They're enrolled there? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. They're required by law to attend? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. They're required by district policies to do 22 certain things while they're at school? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. So do you think that they are associated with 25 the school? 0036 01 A. Yes, but not with this policy. If that's what 02 you're getting at, I don't know. 03 Q. It's a little ambiguous, isn't it? 04 A. Uh-huh. 05 Q. Is it? 06 A. Not this. What you're saying is ambiguous to 07 me. I'm trying to pinpoint what you're asking me. 08 Q. What I'm trying to find out is, is that 09 there's no definition of what not associated or what 10 associated with the school means. 11 A. There's no definition, but I interpret this as 12 being an employee of the District is associated by the 13 policy. 14 MR. ABERNATHY: Let him finish the 15 question. 16 A. Oh, I'm sorry. 17 Q. That's okay. 18 A. I'm sorry. 19 Q. How do you interpret it? Go ahead. 20 MR. ABERNATHY: She just told you. 21 Q. Go ahead. I'll ask the question. How do you 22 interpret it? 23 A. Just that when I read this, I'm thinking that 24 what it's talking about is anyone who's not employed by 25 the District to distribute information. 0037 01 Q. Now, if it was -- if it meant employees, it 02 could have said employees, couldn't it? 03 A. It could. 04 Q. And that would have been clear that you've got 05 to be employed by the District, right? 06 A. I don't know. I mean, I read it the way I 07 read it. 08 Q. Now, what do you think the term groups not 09 associated with the District means? 10 A. The same thing. If they're not associated, 11 I'm seeing that as a person employed in the District. 12 Q. Okay. Now, you have a lot of different groups 13 in the community that use the school for distribution 14 of fliers, don't you? 15 A. What do you mean? 16 Q. Plano Sports Authority. They distribute 17 fliers through the school. 18 A. But that comes through central. 19 Q. Now, Plano Sports Authority is not employed by 20 the District, are they? 21 A. But that's approved through central. Anything 22 that does not come through central -- and if I got 23 anything I would send it to central, so I wouldn't make 24 that call. They would. 25 Q. But you have a lot of different groups, 0038 01 outside entities that aren't employed by the Plano 02 Independent School District that distribute literature, 03 don't you? 04 A. I'm assuming, yes. 05 Q. Well, you have PSA. That's the Plano sports 06 Authority. They have fliers that go through your 07 school? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Okay. YMCA, Indian Guides, Indian Princess? 10 A. I don't know of all those because I only pass 11 out the literature that central sends me and gives 12 permission to pass out. So I know our campus doesn't 13 get everything, so I don't know what all those groups 14 are. 15 Q. Given your understanding of this policy, if 16 one student wanted to pass out a flier to another 17 student during a non-curriculum time of the day, on the 18 playground, for instance, or in the hallway in between 19 classes, they couldn't do that without getting prior 20 permission? 21 A. That's correct. 22 MR. ABERNATHY: You're asking about 23 students? 24 MR. BUNDREN: Yes. I'm asking her 25 understanding of the policy. 0039 01 MR. ABERNATHY: This policy relates to 02 the students. 03 A. This is -- you're talking about the FMA Local 04 or are you -- 05 Q. I'm asking just your understanding of 06 policy -- your understanding of the District's policy. 07 A. They're not allowed to pass anything out 08 either without approval from the principal. 09 Q. So if a student wanted to come to -- during 10 the class day, not interrupting class, not disrupting 11 class, they're in a free time or in between classes, if 12 they wanted to hand a flier to another student, would 13 they have to get your permission? 14 A. No, because they -- I'm not going to know 15 every situation where a child does that. If it is 16 literature they're passing out, I have to approve that. 17 But if they're passing a note or, I mean, those things 18 happen all the time. So maybe I'm misunderstanding 19 your question. 20 Q. Well, if you saw a student passing out fliers 21 to other students -- 22 A. What flier? I mean, that's a little unclear 23 to me. 24 Q. Well, it could have been a flier that invited 25 them to come to the local pizza party at the local 0040 01 First Baptist Church, couldn't it? 02 A. My understanding is any literature passed out 03 by students or an adult has to be approved by the 04 principal. And I don't have the policy right in front 05 of me. It's a different policy than what I'm reading 06 here. 07 Q. Okay. 08 A. There's a different one for students, and I 09 don't know what the name of it is. 10 Q. Do you think that GKA Local applies to 11 students or does not apply to students? 12 A. No, this is -- I think this applies -- this is 13 talking about parents. Well, that's the context you 14 used it in. 15 Q. You think that this policy doesn't apply to 16 students? 17 A. It says any materials, so I'm assuming that's 18 anyone. 19 Q. Okay. Now, the policy that I just showed you, 20 GKA Local, references FMA Local. 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. Would you look at Exhibit 49, please. This 23 has a paragraph in it called prior review? 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. And this states that all written material over 0041 01 which the school does not exercise editorial control 02 that is intended for distribution to students -- 03 A. Uh-huh. 04 Q. -- shall be submitted for prior review 05 according to the following procedures, okay. So is 06 this the policy you're referring to on student 07 distribution? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Okay. Now, do you think this policy applies 10 to a parent-to-parent distribution after hours? 11 A. I think that's this policy. 12 Q. Which one are you referring to? 13 A. Right here. 14 Q. 27? 15 A. 27. And I'm -- I don't usually interpret all 16 those policies. I usually go through central. If I 17 have a question, I'll call and ask. 18 Q. As the principal of the school, it's your 19 responsibility to enforce those policies at that 20 school? 21 A. Correct. And if I don't understand it, I'll 22 call. 23 Q. Okay. And sometimes you don't have time to 24 make a call? 25 A. Oh, yes, I do. 0042 01 Q. After hours? 02 A. Yes. I was there last night till 9:00 so, 03 yes. 04 Q. Who is it that you would call at 7:00 in the 05 evening? 06 A. I've called Jeff Bailey at home later than 07 that. I have access to anyone that I need to if I need 08 to make a phone call for emergency purposes. 09 Q. So you would have to find somebody at home and 10 ask for an interpretation of the policy to know what 11 you can and cannot do? 12 A. If I didn't understand it. 13 Q. Now, look at FMA Regulation, which is 14 Exhibit 1, if you would. This states that distribution 15 of materials in district schools or offices is not 16 allowed, and then it has a paragraph that has a whole 17 bunch of exceptions. 18 A. Where? I'm sorry. I'm looking for -- is it 19 that one? 20 MR. ABERNATHY: It's up at the top, 21 Charles? 22 MR. BUNDREN: Yes. 23 Q. The first paragraph of this policy says 24 distribution of materials in district schools or 25 offices is not allowed. And then it has a paragraph 0043 01 called exceptions. 02 A. Okay. I found it. I'm sorry. 03 Q. And the exception to that is, literature 04 regarding children's programs for nonprofit 05 youth-related organizations located in or functioning 06 in the District may be disseminated in a manner 07 delineated by the communications office. 08 Then it gives examples of Boy Scouts, Girl 09 Scouts, PSA, PYSA, YMCA, YMCA Indian Guides, The 10 Classics, and Special Olympics. 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. There's also an exception for scouting fliers 13 that can be distributed in the fall, right? Is that 14 right? 15 A. It says fliers may be distributed in the fall. 16 Q. Okay. And then it has an exception for 17 nonprofit organizations, the next paragraph -- may be 18 allowed to distribute or display posters if the event 19 or activity is of an educational nature and will 20 benefit students. It gives an example of the Dallas 21 Symphony, Dallas Orchestra, Dallas Arboretum. 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. Now, these types of materials, for instance, 24 the posters of Dallas Symphony Orchestra, Dallas 25 Arboretum, those types of things, are from time to time 0044 01 posted in your school; is that right? 02 A. If they've come through communications. 03 Q. Do you see any exceptions in this particular 04 policy that deals with parents? 05 A. I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying are 06 the parents stated in this? 07 Q. Do you see an exception in this policy that 08 deals with the rights of parents to distribute 09 literature or to seek approval? 10 A. I believe this one is talking about 11 organizations. 12 Q. It appears to be, doesn't it? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Talking about nonprofits? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Talking about different groups, but not 17 parents? 18 A. I don't see parents listed, no. 19 Q. Okay. On Exhibit No. 49 -- do you have that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Is there a designated area at your school 22 where materials can be distributed to students? 23 A. You mean, do I designate a place? Is that 24 what you're asking? 25 Q. Yes. 0045 01 A. I don't believe I've ever dealt with that yet. 02 I mean, since I've been a principal, I have not had to 03 designate a place. That's not been applicable. 04 Q. Have you developed any time, place, and manner 05 restrictions on any kind of distribution of literature 06 at your school? 07 A. Have I developed -- well, I better follow 08 policy. 09 Q. My question is, have you developed any 10 specific time, place, and manner restrictions on the 11 distribution of any kind of literature at your campus? 12 A. And what I said is I would follow policy. So, 13 you know, I would first get approval and then I would 14 probably ask that question -- in what manner should I 15 handle this, because everything is unique to the 16 circumstance. 17 Q. Okay. When did you first hear about connected 18 math? 19 A. Let me see. It was my -- I believe it was -- 20 and I'm not exactly sure, but I believe it was the 21 second year -- let's see. I couldn't tell you the 22 year, but it was my first year at Armstrong because 23 they were running a pilot program. 24 Q. At your school? 25 A. At Armstrong. 0046 01 Q. And what year would that have been? 02 A. The year I went to Armstrong. 03 Q. As a principal? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. What year would that be? 06 A. It's in your notes. I'm sorry. I don't want 07 to have to count back. 08 Q. My notes indicate 1996-'97? 09 A. Yes, correct. 10 Q. Is that right? 11 A. Uh-huh, because I was there four years, so 12 that would be right. 13 Q. How did you hear about the fact that your 14 school was going to be a pilot for connected math? 15 A. Well, when I came in, they were already doing 16 connected math. 17 Q. What grade level? 18 A. I think it was at the 6th and 7th. They were 19 all being trained. 20 Q. You say "they." Do you mean the teachers? 21 A. Yes. And I can't tell you exactly. I don't 22 remember. I really don't. 23 Q. How did you first learn that there was this 24 thing called connected math? 25 A. When I got on the campus, Pat Henry, my math 0047 01 department head, came and talked to me about it. 02 Q. What did Pat Henry say? 03 A. She just said that they were doing connected 04 math and wanted me to be aware of what it was. So she 05 gave me a manual, and I read it. And that's kind of 06 how we started. 07 Q. Had you ever heard of connected math prior to 08 that? 09 A. No. 10 Q. Have you received any specific training on 11 connected math? 12 A. What do you mean specific training? 13 Q. There's been some testimony by some of the 14 Defendants that there were some meetings down in Austin 15 put on by TSSI. 16 A. No. 17 Q. And some of the teachers and administrators 18 went down to Austin to get training on that. Did you 19 ever do that? 20 A. I didn't, no. 21 Q. Have you received any District training on 22 connected math? 23 A. Training is a little unclear. I've been aware 24 of the program and I've read the materials, but 25 specific training, we're going to train you on 0048 01 connected math, no. 02 Q. Okay. The reason I was asking those questions 03 is that some people have testified about specific 04 training. It was unclear if it was just the teachers 05 or the administrators too. 06 So you have not received any actual hands-on 07 training about connected math? 08 A. No. 09 Q. You're just aware that this is what the math 10 department is doing? 11 A. Now, we've gotten materials and information on 12 it. But as far as specifically going through lessons 13 and here's -- you know, I've read the materials but, 14 no, not trained. 15 Q. When Pat Henry came in 19 -- was this like the 16 fall of '96, when you were starting the fall semester? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. When Pat Henry came in and handed you this 19 manual on connected math, did you ask Pat, well, where 20 is the textbook or, you know, what is it we're 21 teaching? I mean, did you ask any questions? 22 A. Yes, I did. I asked lots of questions, but I 23 couldn't tell you all the questions I asked. We spent 24 about a half a day or so going through that whole 25 thing. She showed me the material. She talked to me 0049 01 about, you know, just in general what connected math 02 was, that they had been doing a pilot. And that was 03 almost four years ago, so I can't exactly recall what 04 that -- what was discussed, but I know we discussed it. 05 Q. And you needed to know that in case you had 06 questions from some of the parents? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. That's the reason you were curious? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. All right. Was there a textbook that year? 11 A. I believe there are workbooks that they use as 12 a textbook. 13 Q. Was that the first year in 1996-'97 that 14 connected math was at Armstrong? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Had it been there the prior year? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, during the '96-'97 school year, did you 19 have any parent meetings to tell the parents about 20 connected math and that there was a pilot program going 21 on at Armstrong? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. When did those parent meetings occur? 24 A. I couldn't tell you exactly the dates and 25 times and all that, but I know we had -- we tried to 0050 01 have one in the fall and one in the spring. 02 Q. So it would have been the fall of '96 and the 03 spring of '97? 04 A. And I'm trying to think. I can't -- I don't 05 recall exactly. I just remember having them. I 06 remember being at them. 07 Q. Okay. Did anyone come -- anyone from 08 administration come to those meetings? 09 A. Jim Wohlgehagen. 10 Q. How did you communicate with the parents to 11 inform them that there was going to be a parent-teacher 12 night to discuss connected math? 13 A. Any time we do any parent meeting, we send a 14 flier home and we try to put it on the phone master, 15 but the phone master doesn't always work, so we -- it 16 does now, but at the -- when I first arrived there, 17 there was a problem with it, so sometimes it worked and 18 sometimes it didn't -- but fliers and phone master. 19 Q. Is the phone master some kind of recorded 20 message? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. So parents can call there and get a message? 23 A. It goes to every parent. 24 Q. Oh, it sends out a message to every parent 25 like an auto-dialer? 0051 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Okay. Now, the fliers. You said you sent 03 fliers home. How do you distribute those fliers? 04 A. The students take them home. 05 Q. So the school manufacturers a flier notifying 06 the parents of the meetings, and then students take 07 those home in their backpacks or take-home materials 08 and hand to their parents? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you did that in the '96-'97 school year to 11 announce your parent meetings? 12 A. Any time we do a parent meeting, we either 13 send a flier or phone master. That's pretty much a 14 standard procedure. 15 Q. Okay. Now, in the fall meeting of '96 with 16 the parents or in the spring meeting of '97 with the 17 parents, was there any opposition or dissent -- let me 18 put it that way -- by the parents to the connected math 19 program? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What do you recall about the opposition or 22 dissent, let's say, in the fall of 1996? 23 A. I can't exactly tell you dates and times 24 again, but I know there were parents that felt that was 25 not the best program for their child. And there were 0052 01 just -- I was hearing also from the teachers that there 02 was, you know, a group of parents that wasn't happy 03 with the program. 04 Q. Did you start to hear that in the fall of '96? 05 A. I heard it right when I got there. 06 Q. From the very beginning. 07 A. Pat, when she went through the program with 08 me, said that we didn't have 100 percent, but she felt 09 like it was a good program. 10 Q. What did you understand she meant by didn't 11 have 100 percent? 12 A. That we didn't have 100 percent parents in 13 agreement with CMP. 14 Q. Oh, okay. So she told you in that first 15 meeting when you first learned about CMP that were some 16 dissenting views on CMP from the parents? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. So you were aware of that right off the bat? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. I assume that the fact there was some dissent 21 from the parents led you to believe that you may need 22 to kind of bone up on this to understand what's going 23 on here? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. So you took a half a day with Pat to be 0053 01 sure you boned up as much as you could? 02 A. Yes. And I also met with Jim Wohlgehagen. 03 Q. How long did you meet with Jim? 04 A. I don't remember. 05 Q. Now, when you had your parents meeting in the 06 spring of 1997, did you also have parents appear at 07 that meeting who were expressing opposition or 08 dissenting views? 09 A. Yes. I mean, I couldn't tell you 10 specifically, but I remember there was some opposition. 11 Q. Did the parents speak up in the spring of '97 12 meeting with concerns about the program? 13 A. The way we structured our meeting is we had 14 the general meeting that Jim did. This is pretty much 15 almost every meeting that I'm aware of when we were 16 there. And then we'd divide them into grade levels to 17 go with their teachers. So that's when a lot of that 18 discussion occurred. 19 Q. When they were divided into grade levels? 20 A. Right. So they could meet with their 21 teachers. 22 Q. So your teachers then would come back and 23 report to you that there were parents that were in 24 opposition to what the District was doing on connected 25 math? 0054 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. So you were aware that was going on in the 03 spring of '97? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. Okay. Did you have the connected math program 06 at Armstrong in the '97-'98 school year? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. And what grade levels did you have it in? 09 A. I don't remember. I just remember there was a 10 process of implementation where they would get trained 11 and each group go and get the training for the grade 12 level. 13 Q. Your teachers? 14 A. Yes, my teachers. And I know one of my 15 teachers went to all three trainings. 16 Q. And were these in the summer down in Austin? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. So by grade level, they started taking your 19 teachers and taking them to Austin to get training on 20 connected math? 21 A. As I recall, yes. 22 Q. And you never went down there for any of that 23 training? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you have a feel in the '96-'97 school year 0055 01 about how strong the opposition was in your school to 02 connected math? 03 A. I guess I didn't. I know there was some 04 opposition, but the parents that I was speaking with 05 were very kind. They went oppositional to me. They 06 were feeling strong about the program, and I think 07 that's the way it's pretty much always been. They felt 08 strongly about the program, but they weren't rude or 09 anything, at least on my campus they weren't, so... 10 Q. But you certainly knew that in the '96-'97 11 school year, there was a group of parents that had real 12 concerns and had expressed opposition to continuing the 13 program? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. That was very clear to you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now, in the '97-'98 school year, did you have 18 parent meetings on connected math? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. When did you have those meetings, 21 generally? 22 A. I want to say -- and I'm not -- I'm 23 recollecting off that because we were going through 24 renovation, so I couldn't tell you exactly, but I think 25 we brought the parents in -- I can't even tell you if 0056 01 it was fall and spring. We did bring them in, but I 02 can't tell you exactly if it was both semesters. But 03 they came in. Same setup. We had the general meeting. 04 They went to teachers' classrooms. 05 Q. Dr. Wohlgehagen came in? 06 A. Yes. He's been at every one since I've been 07 there. 08 Q. So he would come in and speak generally to the 09 group? 10 A. He and Pat would kind of do it a little bit 11 together, but he did most of it. 12 Q. Pat is Pat Henry? 13 A. Yes, my department head. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. They were actually, in my opinion, more 16 knowledgeable about it since they had been there since 17 the inception of it, so they would do the meeting. 18 Q. Approximately -- can you give us an 19 approximate idea about how many parents attended the 20 meetings in the '97-'98 school year? 21 A. Maybe 100. 22 Q. Okay. Now, during the -- let's back up to the 23 '96-'97 meetings that you had. 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. At those meetings, did any of the parents that 0057 01 appeared and were opposed to the program, did they 02 attempt to distribute any literature to each other? 03 A. In that year, no, not that I'm aware of, 04 unless they did it and I wasn't aware of. 05 Q. I'm just asking what you're aware of. 06 A. Okay, sorry. No. 07 Q. You didn't see that? 08 A. No. 09 Q. Okay. You knew that they were there and you 10 knew that they had concerns and you knew that they had 11 some opposition to the program, but there wasn't any 12 distribution of literature by those parents? 13 A. Not that I was aware of. 14 Q. Okay. How about in the '97-'98 meetings of 15 the parents? Did the opposition continue to be there? 16 A. Uh-huh, yes. 17 Q. Did it grow? 18 A. I don't know if it grew or not. I just was 19 aware it was still very present. I couldn't tell you, 20 you know, if they were increasing or that sort of 21 thing, but they were present. 22 Q. And you had this -- well, you had one or two 23 during that school year. You did have a parent meeting 24 specifically on connected math. Dr. Wohlgehagen came 25 out. He and Pat Henry presented the general session? 0058 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Then you broke off to the classrooms? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. And then did you get feedback from your 05 teachers about the parents and how they felt about the 06 program? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. And was there a feedback of opposition to the 09 program? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. How would you -- if you can, give me an idea 12 of your general feeling in the '97-'98 school year 13 about how strong that opposition was at your school? 14 A. I couldn't tell you. I mean, I don't know 15 if -- you mentioned if it grew or not. I don't know. 16 I just remember that there were concerned parents that 17 were there, and they voiced those to the teachers, and 18 the teachers felt like they handled them during the 19 meetings at that time. So I couldn't tell you 20 specifically, but there was opposition. 21 Q. Okay. Now, in the summer of 1998, did you 22 become aware that there was going to be a parents 23 meeting off-site, not at the school, that was being 24 organized by Mrs. Jenkins? 25 A. All right. Can I rephrase that? I think I 0059 01 understand, but I'm not -- would you rephrase it? 02 Maybe I didn't understand. 03 Q. At some point between the spring semester of 04 '98 and the fall semester of 1999, did you become 05 aware -- or at some point did you become aware 06 that there was going to be a parents meeting arranged 07 by parents of the District -- 08 A. Oh, okay. 09 Q. -- to discuss the connected math program? 10 A. I saw it in the paper. 11 Q. Okay. So you saw an ad in the paper 12 announcing a parents meeting? 13 A. No. I think what I saw was an article. I 14 don't know if it was an ad or -- it was -- I think it 15 said that they were -- they had met. I think it was 16 after the meeting. I don't remember. It was either 17 before or after. I just remember seeing in the paper 18 something to do with this meeting. 19 Q. Did you know that -- when did you first learn 20 that in June of 1998 these parents were going to have a 21 meeting? 22 A. Oh, I didn't know. I mean, there's always 23 rumblings, but I don't know. 24 Q. What do you mean by rumblings? 25 A. Like parents just, you know, I heard there's a 0060 01 meeting, and I just -- you know, if that was what 02 needed to happen, that's what needed to happen, as long 03 as I was responsible for my school, that's what I 04 needed to focus on. 05 Q. Now, in the summer of 1998 going into the fall 06 1998 school year -- 07 A. Wait -- okay, going into 1998-'99. 08 Q. Are you with me on that time frame? 09 A. Yes. The years are all convoluted to me, 10 so... 11 Q. At that point at your school, you were into 12 the third year of the pilot program or fourth year? 13 A. When I came there, I think that was their 14 second, I believe, because -- like I said, I'm not real 15 clear on that. I don't remember. I just remember we 16 were implementing it by grade. 17 MR. BUNDREN: Let's take a short break. 18 (Recess from 10:21 to 10:30 a.m.) 19 Q. Ms. Green, during the break there was some 20 discussion about dates. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you have something you wanted to clarify? 23 A. Yes. I'm a year off when I came to Armstrong. 24 It was actually a year later than when I had told you. 25 Q. Okay. So your first year at Armstrong as 0061 01 principal would have been what school year? 02 A. 19 -- wait a minute. Hang on. We just went 03 through this. 04 MR. ABERNATHY: Could I offer this? Is 05 this the start of your forth year? 06 THE WITNESS: Yes, the beginning of my 07 fourth year. 08 MR. ABERNATHY: So if it's the beginning 09 of your fourth year, then '97-'98 would be your first 10 year. 11 THE WITNESS: '97-'98. I thought that's 12 what I -- I must have said '96-'97. 13 A. Okay. It is '97-'98. Sorry. 14 Q. So your first year as a principal at Armstrong 15 would have been fall -- 16 A. The school year 1997-'98. 17 Q. So you started in the fall of '97, and then 18 spring of '98? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Okay. That's your first year? 21 A. I think, yes. 22 Q. So -- 23 MR. ABERNATHY: Could I offer -- I'm 24 getting that confirmed, and I'll confirm it for you. 25 THE WITNESS: We're just going to make 0062 01 sure. 02 MR. ABERNATHY: I'll confirm it for you. 03 MR. BUNDREN: If it's different, just let 04 us know. 05 THE WITNESS: All right. 06 Q. Now, I don't know it's that critical because 07 I'm just trying to get a sequence of what all occurred. 08 A. Okay. 09 Q. So let me go back. Whatever year it was in 10 your first year there, pretty close -- once you first 11 got to the school, you had this meeting with Pat Henry, 12 who was your math coordinator? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You spent a half a day with Pat Henry learning 15 about connected math? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And Pat Henry told you that there were parents 18 who were opposed to the program -- they already knew 19 there were parents that were opposed to the program? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Which caused you as a principal to even want 22 to know more about what was going on because it's your 23 school and you need to know what's happening? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. Then you had a parent meeting in the 0063 01 fall and another parent meeting in the spring of 1998; 02 is that right? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. And you knew during that year that there were 05 parents of students at your school who had a dissenting 06 view or opposing view to the administration's pilot on 07 connected math? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. When did you learn that Ronni Jenkins -- she's 10 one of your parents, isn't she? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Her children attend your school -- or did 13 attend your school at that time? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. When did you first meet Mrs. Jenkins? 16 A. I know it was probably that first year I was 17 there. I'm almost positive it was that first year. 18 Q. And do you remember the context of your 19 meeting with Mrs. Jenkins? 20 A. No. 21 Q. When did you first come to understand that 22 Mrs. Jenkins, who is one of your parents, opposed the 23 connected math program that the District was piloting? 24 A. I couldn't give you an exact time frame. I do 25 recall early on, though, having a conversation with 0064 01 her. 02 Q. And did she express to you in that 03 conversation her opposition to connected math? 04 A. I think the way she told that to me was that 05 she had some concerns about the math program. And it's 06 not exactly what she said probably, but something to 07 that degree. 08 Q. Who were the other parents that you know at 09 the school that first year that were opposed to the 10 math program besides Mrs. Jenkins? 11 A. She -- Mrs. Jenkins was the only one I think 12 that was pretty consistent. I didn't really have a 13 group of parents that were coming to me at that time 14 saying, I don't like this. I think just several 15 parents said that they, you know, were concerned about 16 math -- about the math program. 17 Q. Okay. Now, you said Mrs. Jenkins was 18 consistent. Has she been consistent in her opposition 19 to the math program since you first met her? 20 A. Let me clarify. Consistent in the sense 21 that I saw her. She was in the building. She would 22 always speak. She sometimes would do nice things for 23 the staff. So it wasn't like she was consistent, 24 always at my door saying she didn't like it. I meant 25 consistent in that I saw her. I got to know her right 0065 01 away. 02 Q. She was very active in the school? 03 A. That first year, and the second probably. 04 Q. So she was a parent who was concerned about 05 education, concerned about her kids, and expressed that 06 through her conduct and activities at the school? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Did you ever have any problems with 09 Mrs. Jenkins? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Was she ever rude to you? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Ever speak harshly to you? 14 A. I think she was upset with me at our last 15 meeting, but I think it was just more she was concerned 16 about her sons, so... 17 Q. Concerned about her sons? What about her 18 sons? 19 A. She wanted to put them in algebra. 20 Q. Were they in connected math? 21 A. Were they in our math program? 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And did that connected math program involve 25 connected -- did it involve connected math? 0066 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. And did she oppose that? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. And did she want to move them out of that? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. And what did you say to her? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. That she could? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Why was she upset with you? 11 A. I think she thought I was going to say no. 12 And once we established that, you know, I wanted to 13 work with her and, you know, work through that, I think 14 we were okay. 15 Q. So early on in your tenure as a principal at 16 Armstrong, you knew that Mrs. Jenkins was in opposition 17 to the District's connected math program? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And she was consistently in opposition to it? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Would you say that her opposition to it grew 22 as the years went by? 23 A. No, because she was always the same as far as 24 with me. I mean, you know, she's very consistent. But 25 I wouldn't say it grew, at least not from my 0067 01 understanding. 02 Q. Now, sometime in the spring of 1998, did you 03 have a conversation with Mrs. Jenkins at an 8th grade 04 social concerning the upcoming summer's meeting with 05 the parents? 06 A. I don't remember. 07 Q. You don't have any recollection of that 08 meeting? 09 A. No. 10 Q. Okay. Did you tell Mrs. Jenkins that the 11 administration had found out about her meeting with the 12 parents in the summer? 13 A. If did I, I don't recall saying that. 14 Q. You can't deny that you said that, you just 15 don't recall? 16 A. I can't deny it and I can't -- like I said, I 17 don't remember. It was long ago. 18 Q. Did you tell Mrs. Jenkins that because she had 19 scheduled the meeting of the parents in the summer of 20 1998, that the administration had ordered you to 21 conduct parent math meetings in May of '98? 22 A. No. I don't recall that. 23 Q. You don't recall that one way or the other? 24 A. No, I don't remember that at all. I don't 25 remember that conversation taking place. That's not my 0068 01 style. That's not how I talk. 02 Q. Who decided when you were going to conduct 03 your parent meetings on connected math? 04 A. In what -- during what time frame? 05 Q. In the first year you were there. 06 A. Well, they had done -- when I got there, they 07 were already doing math meetings. They already had 08 math meetings. 09 Q. They were ongoing? 10 A. Uh-huh. They usually did one in the fall and 11 one in the spring. 12 Q. Okay. Now, let's talk about the spring 13 meetings of 1998. Now, there were some meetings in the 14 spring of 1998 with the parents right before the school 15 year ended? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. Is that right? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Okay. Who told you to conduct those meetings 20 in that time frame? 21 A. No one. 22 Q. Who made the decision that you would have a 23 meeting right before school adjourned in 1998? 24 A. We had been doing that every year since I had 25 been there in the fall and the spring. So we were 0069 01 doing the same thing -- we didn't change what we were 02 already doing. 03 Q. Do you recall if you had that meeting in May 04 of 1998? 05 A. I know it was in the spring. I can't tell you 06 exactly when it was, but it was in -- it was in the 07 latter part of the spring. 08 Q. Okay. Last six-week period or something? 09 A. I can't tell you that. I'm sorry. 10 Q. Now, that was your second -- if we're right on 11 when you started at Armstrong, that would have been 12 your second parents meeting to talk about connected 13 math? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. Is that right? 16 A. Yes. Sorry. 17 Q. Were there opposition parents at that meeting? 18 A. I don't know. I would guess yes, I mean, 19 because there were always parents that were asking 20 questions. They weren't ever rude about it or 21 anything, but there were always questions so, yes. 22 Q. And they expressed concern about the program? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Questioned the program? 25 A. Yes. 0070 01 Q. Opposed the program? 02 A. Some. 03 Q. It would be fair to say that there were 04 differing views among your parents on the 05 appropriateness of the program for their students? 06 A. No. The only information that I received from 07 the parents is that they were concerned about the 08 connected math program. We didn't talk about 09 appropriateness or not appropriateness. There was a 10 concern about the actual program, the content of the 11 program. 12 Q. Were they -- did they express concern to you 13 about whether or not their child that was enrolled in 14 your school was receiving proper instruction on math 15 because of the program? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. Were there parents that wanted to opt 18 out of the program? 19 A. If they did, they didn't come to me to ask. I 20 think the opposition was there, but I didn't have 21 anyone until later -- I think the last year -- say 22 something to me. 23 Q. Now, at some point, and you say, I think, 24 earlier in the summer of 1998 or some point in that 25 time frame you learned about a parents meeting outside 0071 01 of the school district at some other place to discuss 02 the District's pilot program on connected math; is that 03 right? 04 A. I just remember seeing something on it, that's 05 correct. I couldn't -- 06 Q. In the newspaper or -- 07 A. Somewhere -- I saw something on it, yes. 08 Q. Tell me what you recall about where you saw it 09 and what you recall. 10 A. I don't remember. I'm sorry. I don't 11 remember. 12 Q. Now, in the fall of 1998, going into the 13 1998-'99 school year, that would have been your second 14 year -- 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. -- as principal at Armstrong; is that right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And the District was still in a pilot program 19 for connected math at your school? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you had -- did you have any fall 22 meetings in the fall of 1998? Were there any meetings 23 in the fall? 24 A. I think we tried to have them twice a year. I 25 know when we began the renovation, there was a problem 0072 01 too with space. We had stuff all over the building. I 02 can't recall if we did, but our goal was to have them 03 each semester, every semester I was there. They'd been 04 doing that before. We wanted to continue doing that to 05 keep everyone informed. 06 Q. Okay. Now, do you know if you had one in the 07 fall, or was that in the first quarter of 1999? 08 A. I don't recall. I'm assuming we did, but I 09 can't tell you exactly when we had it. 10 Q. During the fall of 1998 and the early part of 11 1999, did the opposition among the parents to the 12 connected math program grow? 13 A. I don't think it did. I think there's always 14 been opposition. So I couldn't tell you if it was 15 growing or not. I didn't have any more parents come 16 talk to me about it. 17 Q. Did you hear more about what was going on in 18 the District with the connected math? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did it tend to you to be escalating within the 21 District? 22 A. At some point, yes. 23 Q. Okay. You're aware that there was some 24 Level 1 grievances filed by some of the parents dealing 25 with connected math? 0073 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. That's a little unusual, isn't it? 03 A. Not in a school district, I mean. 04 Q. Have you ever had someone file a Level 1 05 grievance against you -- 06 A. No. 07 Q. -- on curriculum? 08 A. No. 09 Q. That's a little different -- it doesn't deal 10 with discipline or it doesn't deal with expulsion -- 11 let me ask you this. Have you ever heard of a 12 grievance filed before in the school district 13 concerning a pilot program? 14 A. Before what? 15 Q. At any time while you've been in Plano? Have 16 you ever come across or heard of a grievance filed with 17 respect to a pilot program? 18 A. Not that I'm aware of. 19 Q. Were you aware that there were parents in your 20 school during the fall of 1998 that were seeking 21 petitions, parent signatures on petitions to the school 22 board about the connected math program? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. How did you become aware of the petition 25 drive? 0074 01 A. One of my parents came and said that there 02 was -- there were people asking them to sign 03 petitions -- that they said if they didn't sign the 04 petition, they wouldn't get a textbook or something 05 like that. I couldn't verbatim quote it, but that's, I 06 believe, what I was told, that there were several 07 parents that came and said there were petitions 08 circulating. 09 Q. Dealing with connected math? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Among the parent group? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you ever see any of those petitions? 14 A. I believe I saw it when it was completed 15 because it listed out, I think, you know, all the 16 people that signed it. And I think that was once it 17 had been submitted. 18 Q. To the Board? 19 A. (Moving head up and down.) 20 Q. Is that your understanding? 21 A. Wherever they submitted it. I just remember 22 seeing a copy of it. 23 Q. Do you recall in what context you saw a copy 24 of it? 25 A. No. 0075 01 Q. Okay. Did it list the school that the 02 parents' child was enrolled in? 03 A. I think it was just a list of names, grades -- 04 and, yes, it was by campus. 05 Q. Okay. And this was kind of like a data list 06 that had a field for data -- or a field for name and a 07 field for campus and a field for grade, that kind of 08 thing? 09 A. I believe, something to that effect. 10 Q. Okay. Did you attend any of the Board of 11 Trustee's meetings on connected math? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Which ones did you attend? 14 A. I had a teacher speaking at one regarding the 15 connected math program, in support of it, and I went to 16 support her. 17 Q. Who was that teacher? 18 A. Margaret Craig. 19 Q. Did she speak at an open meeting of the Board 20 of Trustees? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Do you know when that was? 23 A. I want to say in the spring of 1999. 24 Q. Was it when the Board was considering the 25 adoption of a textbook? 0076 01 A. There was open meetings. And I believe that 02 she went to speak at one of the open meetings. I don't 03 recall which exact one, though. 04 Q. Did you see Mrs. Jenkins there? 05 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. 06 Q. When do you recall the District finally made a 07 recommendation for approval of a textbook on connected 08 math? 09 A. I don't recall that that happened. All I know 10 is that the way we were structuring the curriculum on 11 my campus is how we implemented it, per the Board 12 directive. 13 Q. Did you ever have -- in the 1998-1999 school 14 year, did you ever have a textbook for connected math? 15 A. Not that I'm aware of. 16 Q. Did you get a textbook for connected math in 17 the 1999-2000 year? 18 A. I think I mentioned earlier we were using the 19 workbooks as the textbook. 20 Q. And where did the workbooks come from? 21 A. The program? You mean for the ones the kids 22 were using? 23 Q. Yes, the materials you were using in the 24 program? 25 A. Because we were -- at that point we were still 0077 01 a pilot, we were getting them from Jim Wohlgehagen. 02 Q. Have you been a principal at Armstrong Middle 03 School when any other pilot programs were going on 04 there? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. How many different pilot programs have gone on 07 at Armstrong Middle School? 08 A. Several. 09 Q. And what do you understand the pilot programs 10 to be? 11 A. I understand a pilot program is an opportunity 12 to maybe try something to see if it's going to be 13 successful with the students. Specifically I'm 14 speaking of boys and girls club or after school 15 programs. 16 Q. How about curriculum -- pilot programs on 17 curriculum? 18 A. I had never worked with one before coming to 19 Armstrong, so I was following the District directive on 20 that. 21 Q. So when you were presented with the connected 22 math program as a pilot program at Armstrong, it was 23 the first time you'd ever seen that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Since you've been at Armstrong, how many other 0078 01 pilot programs on curriculum have you worked with? 02 A. None. 03 Q. Now, did you attend the parents meetings on 04 connected math in the '98-'99 school year? 05 A. Let me think back. I went to all of them, so 06 if we had them on our campus, I was there. 07 Q. Did you see Mrs. Jenkins at any of those? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. And during one of those sessions, did 10 Mrs. Jenkins point out to the people that were 11 participating in the program a reference in the grant 12 application to the students as being human subjects? 13 A. I don't recall that. I don't remember. 14 Q. Did you ever tell the group that you weren't 15 going to address Mrs. Jenkins' concern about the grant 16 referring to the students as human subjects? 17 A. I don't even remember that statement being 18 made, so I don't recall that. 19 Q. So you don't recall ever standing up and 20 saying, we're not going to address that question? 21 A. Hang on a second. I think what you're 22 referring to is, we had a meeting -- one of the 23 meetings, that we were getting ready to divide into our 24 groups to go to the classroom, and I said that we 25 wanted to give the parents the opportunity instead of 0079 01 in the big group is to let them talk to their teachers 02 and let them ask their questions with their teachers, 03 if that's what you're talking about. Other than that, 04 I don't recall anything else being said. 05 Q. You don't recall Mrs. Jenkins ever raising the 06 question of why the students were referred to as human 07 subjects in the grant application? 08 A. No. I don't even recognize that statement 09 that you're making. 10 Q. Did you ever review the grant application? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Do you know that there was a grant 13 application? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did anyone from the District ever tell you 16 that the grant application referred to the students as 17 human subjects? 18 A. No. 19 Q. I want to go back to these series of these 20 meetings that you had on parent-teacher math night and 21 be sure I understand what was going on there. 22 As I understand it, each meeting had the same 23 basic format? 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. Is that right? 0080 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. A date was selected for the meeting, a 03 location at the school was selected, a time was 04 selected, and there was a flier sent out to the parents 05 through the take-home folders of the kids -- 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. -- announcing the meeting? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Did you put it on your marquee as well? 10 A. We probably did. I couldn't tell you, but we 11 try to get all meetings on there. 12 Q. So you were distributing information to the 13 parents about the connected math parent-teacher 14 meetings at least through the fliers -- you know that 15 for sure? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Your phone mail system? 18 A. If it was working. 19 Q. What did you call it? 20 A. Phone master. 21 Q. Phone master, okay, which was kind of an 22 auto-dialer. 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. And it dials all the parents' homes -- 25 A. Yes. 0081 01 Q. -- and gives them a recorded message, right? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. And the marquee, if you got it on there? 04 A. Right. 05 Q. And it was an invitation to parents to come to 06 the school after hours to get information about the 07 pilot program of connected math occurring at your 08 school? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. And then there would be a question and 11 answer session afterwards? 12 A. No. It was more like we had the informational 13 meeting on the front end and they went to the teachers 14 rooms. And they actually did a lesson with the teacher 15 so they could have, you know, some experience with what 16 the kids were being asked to do. And then if they had 17 questions, they were welcome to ask them at that time. 18 Q. Okay. Now, you told your parents -- or at 19 least expressed to them, or at least it was understood, 20 I guess -- that the connected math program at Armstrong 21 was a pilot program? 22 A. I didn't say that. I think that was just an 23 understanding in the District, that it was a pilot 24 program. 25 Q. Okay. Not every middle school had it? 0082 01 A. That's correct. 02 Q. And it was being run through Armstrong Middle 03 School to be tested to see how the students responded? 04 A. I don't think that's exactly what they were 05 doing. I think they first had to validate that it was 06 a good, strong educational program for students, 07 because I doubt very seriously they would have brought 08 that in just as testing. 09 Q. Well, how do you validate that it's a good, 10 strong educational program for students without testing 11 it? 12 A. That's Jim Wohlgehagen's responsibility. 13 Q. You don't know? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Okay. Now, the format of your meeting was, is 16 that it was after hours? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. During non-curriculum time? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. An invitation to parents to come to the 21 school? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. Correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Subject matter of the program would be 0083 01 connected math? 02 A. Math, uh-huh. 03 Q. Okay. Someone from the administration of the 04 school district would come to address the crowd? 05 A. With our department head. 06 Q. Okay. And Dr. Wohlgehagen and Mr. Henry -- is 07 it Mr. or Ms Henry? 08 A. Ms. Henry, uh-huh. 09 Q. Ms. Henry -- Pat Henry would address the 10 parents about connected math? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And then after that was done, there would be 13 a -- you would break up into smaller groups and go talk 14 to the teachers? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And there would be further information about 17 connected math; is that right? 18 A. They would walk through a lesson. 19 Q. Okay. So the parents would be invited to 20 come. They'd park in the parking lots. They'd ingress 21 through your hallways to you meeting room? 22 A. We -- all parents have to enter through the 23 front because of the security. All the doors are 24 locked. 25 Q. Where did you conduct your meeting? 0084 01 A. In the cafeteria. 02 Q. Okay. Were there materials available for the 03 parents to pick up, review, or take home that the 04 District had at those meetings? 05 A. No. 06 Q. Did the District ever put out any textbooks or 07 show any materials to any of the parents? 08 A. Not that I'm aware of. Not at our campus. 09 Q. You never saw that? 10 A. I never saw that. 11 Q. Did Dr. Wohlgehagen ever bring any proposed 12 textbooks to any of the meetings? 13 A. I don't remember. 14 Q. Did you ever become aware that the Texas 15 Education Agency had reviewed some of the proposed 16 connected math textbooks and found them nonconforming 17 to the TEKS? 18 A. No. 19 Q. You never knew that? 20 A. No. 21 Q. No one ever told you that? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Dr. Wohlgehagen never told you that? 24 A. No, not that I'm aware of. Not that I can 25 remember. 0085 01 Q. Do you know -- 02 A. If he did, I don't remember. 03 Q. You know what the TEKS are, don't you? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. Those are very important, aren't they? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. Would it surprise you that Dr. Wohlgehagen 08 would propose a textbook that was found by the TEA to 09 be nonconforming to the TEKS? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. At any time during this controversy concerning 12 connected math, did you ever, at any point, from any 13 source, learn that there was a TEA report that found 14 that the textbook proposed by Dr. Wohlgehagen didn't 15 conform to the TEKS? 16 A. No. 17 Q. You never knew that? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Okay. Did you ever learn any information from 20 any other school districts about their experience with 21 connected math? 22 MR. ABERNATHY: Wait a second. Charles, 23 I let you go here. What does this have to do with 24 First Amendment rights? 25 MR. BUNDREN: It's got a lot. 0086 01 MR. ABERNATHY: Well, you need to tell me 02 because I'm going to stop it here and I'll go ask for a 03 protective order because I don't get what this has got 04 to do. If you can help me, then I'll -- 05 MR. BUNDREN: Well, I'm not going to 06 disclose my theory of my case. 07 MR. ABERNATHY: Well, I'm not trying to 08 get you to do that. 09 MR. BUNDREN: I think it has a lot to do 10 with it. I'm not going to go -- 11 MR. ABERNATHY: The connected math case 12 has been disposed of as of the time being. 13 MR. BUNDREN: There's a lot of 14 information that somebody in the District didn't let 15 the principals know. 16 MR. ABERNATHY: Okay. 17 MR. BUNDREN: So -- 18 MR. ABERNATHY: That's fine. 19 MR. BUNDREN: And that information was 20 information that was available to the parents, which 21 was censored by the District, so -- what was my 22 question? 23 Q. Let me reask the question. During this pilot 24 program before the Board of Trustees had actually 25 adopted connected math for full implementation, did you 0087 01 learn from any source any information from other school 02 districts in the country that had used connected math 03 and what their experience was? 04 A. Not that I can remember. 05 Q. Now, at some point, you understood that the 06 Board of Trustees were going to take a vote on 07 implementing connected math throughout the District? 08 A. My understanding is they would have open 09 meetings to have discussions about the math program and 10 that they would be visiting campuses. 11 Q. Are you using connected math today? 12 A. We follow our math program that the District 13 uses at Armstrong. 14 Q. Does that math program include connected math? 15 A. It's the math program that we're -- we're 16 following, but we use other resources dependent on what 17 the kids need. 18 Q. At some point, you had a conversation with 19 Mrs. Jenkins about her being -- or she asked you about 20 being appointed to some textbook committees; is that 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did she request that? 24 A. She called me and requested that. 25 Q. And how did you respond no her request? 0088 01 MR. ABERNATHY: We're not going to 02 discuss it anymore. She's not going to answer the 03 question about textbooks. That's been resolved. If 04 that's a problem, then I'll go seek a protective order 05 and ask the Judge not to force her to go through this. 06 We'll bring her back if the case is remanded on that 07 issue. You can depose her on those facts then. 08 Q. Do you refuse to answer that question? 09 MR. ABERNATHY: On the advice of counsel. 10 A. On the advice of the counsel. 11 MR. BUNDREN: I will tell you now, 12 Richard, that you don't have a right to instruct the 13 witness not to answer a question that does not involve 14 a privileged matter under the Rules. 15 MR. ABERNATHY: To seek -- 16 MR. BUNDREN: Under the Rules, you don't 17 have a right to instruct anyone not to answer a 18 question that doesn't involve privilege. You can 19 object to it, but you don't have a right to instruct 20 her not the answer the question. 21 MR. ABERNATHY: Fine. We'll recess it 22 and I'll go seek a protective order and we'll come back 23 and decide if you can ask those questions. 24 MR. BUNDREN: I'm not going to recess the 25 deposition. But I want -- 0089 01 MR. ABERNATHY: I am on this question. 02 MR. BUNDREN: I want answers to my 03 questions. And if you don't allow the witness to 04 answer the question, I'll seek a sanction from the 05 Court. 06 MR. ABERNATHY: That's fine. 07 MR. BUNDREN: I'm going to tell you that 08 now. 09 MR. ABERNATHY: Okay. I'm going to tell 10 you now that I'm going to seek a protective order. I'm 11 going to recess the deposition now as to these 12 questions to seek a protective order to prevent you 13 from asking questions about a part of the lawsuit 14 that's already been resolved. 15 MR. BUNDREN: It has not been resolved 16 because it shows motive. And I'm not going to get into 17 my explanation to you as to why I'm asking questions. 18 MR. ABERNATHY: Okay. That part of the 19 lawsuit -- 20 MR. BUNDREN: You can instruct her not to 21 answer because she's your client. 22 MR. ABERNATHY: We're going to recess. I 23 won't instruct her not to answer. We'll just recess 24 it. I'll go seek a protective order and we'll let the 25 Judge decide. 0090 01 MR. BUNDREN: All right. I'm going to 02 ask some more questions. And then you can instruct her 03 however you want to, but I'm just warning you that I 04 will seek a sanction because you can't instruct the 05 witness not to answer the question. 06 MR. ABERNATHY: Then I'll withdraw that. 07 We'll just recess it and I'll go seek a protective 08 order, which I have the right to do. 09 So what my requests are, so we won't have to 10 have the fight is, can we go to the part that has to 11 do -- I mean, I know -- I understand your contention 12 that it relates, and I understand your contention that 13 you're not going to tell me how it relates. 14 MR. BUNDREN: I don't have to. 15 MR. ABERNATHY: Okay. If that's your 16 position, that's fine. I think I have the right to 17 assert -- to request the Court for a protective order 18 not to allow you to ask questions about this part of 19 the lawsuit. 20 If there are other parts of the lawsuit we can 21 go to so we don't have to come back and do the rest of 22 it. If the Judge says I've got to answer them, then 23 we'll answer them. 24 MR. BUNDREN: I'm going to make my 25 record so we have the questions on the record so the 0091 01 Judge can look at those when we seek the sanctions and 02 when you seek your protective order because he needs to 03 know what I want to know so he can make a ruling on 04 that. 05 MR. ABERNATHY: Well, then I'm going to 06 recess it now because I'm not going to let you set me 07 up and say -- tell her not to answer the question when 08 all I just said -- look, let me go ask for a protective 09 order on this issue, and if the Judge says I have to 10 answer them, then we'll come back and give you the 11 information, Charles. 12 MR. BUNDREN: I'm not going to agree to 13 recess the deposition. And I'm going to ask my 14 questions, and you can instruct her however you want to 15 instruct her and she can follow the instruction or not 16 follow it, but then the Court will know what the 17 Court's ruling on. And the Court needs to know what 18 the Court is going to rule on. I've only asked one 19 question that you've instructed her not to answer. 20 MR. ABERNATHY: Well, I've withdrawn that 21 and I said I'm going to recess the deposition and seek 22 a protective order if you're going to continue to go 23 down there. 24 If there's something else we can talk about 25 today that doesn't relate to that -- I mean, I'll say 0092 01 fine. If you want to talk about the issue of the 02 textbook committee. As to all those questions you ask 03 about the textbook committee, let me go ask for a 04 protective order. If you want to seek sanctions from 05 me seeking a protective order, that's fine -- or for 06 recessing the deposition on that issue, that's fine, 07 Charles. There's no need to have this -- this fight 08 about it, I mean. 09 (Exhibit No. 71 marked.) 10 Q. I'll ask you to look at Exhibit 71. 11 THE WITNESS: Can we take a break? 12 MR. ABERNATHY: Sure. 13 (Recess from 11:02 to 11:07 a.m.) 14 Q. I'll hand you Exhibit 71. Is this an 15 affidavit that you filed in this case? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. I want to question you about your statements 18 in paragraph 5, paragraph 6, and paragraph 7, 19 concerning your conversations with Ms. Brooks 20 concerning the textbook committee and concerning your 21 conversations with Veronica Jenkins concerning her 22 request that she be appointed to the textbook 23 committee. Are you going to refuse to answer those 24 questions? 25 A. No. 0093 01 Q. Okay. Let me then ask you about paragraph 5. 02 Mrs. Jenkins requested that she be appointed to the 03 parent textbook committee; is that correct? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. What is the parent textbook committee? 06 A. At that time, I didn't really know. I had 07 never appointed anyone, so I didn't know. 08 Q. What did you do to find out about the parent 09 textbook committee? 10 A. I called Marilyn Brooks. 11 Q. What did she tell you? 12 A. She said that the textbook committee is to 13 look at appropriateness of grade level, not content. 14 Q. Did Mrs. Jenkins tell you why she wanted to be 15 on the parent textbook committee? 16 A. I'm sure she did in our conversation. I don't 17 recall what she said. 18 Q. Have you ever served on any textbook 19 committees for the District? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Are you aware that there is a textbook 22 committee? 23 A. I knew they had them, yes. 24 Q. Is there a difference between a parent 25 textbook committee and some other textbook committee in 0094 01 the District? 02 A. At that time, I didn't know, but I believe 03 there's two different committees that meet. And I 04 believe Mrs. Jenkins was the one that told me that. I 05 don't recall exactly, but I think so. 06 Q. Do you know how textbooks that you're going to 07 use for teaching curriculum in the District are adopted 08 by the District? Do you know the process for that? 09 A. I know that there's a committee that goes 10 through that process. But, no, I don't know the exact 11 process of it. 12 Q. After Ms. Books -- did you ever tell 13 Mrs. Jenkins that you would agree to appoint her to the 14 parent textbook committee? 15 A. The way I stated that is, I didn't have a 16 problem with that; but since I didn't know the process 17 or the procedures, I would need to call and find out. 18 Q. And did you find out that principals of 19 schools do have the ability to appoint people? 20 A. I did then. 21 Q. Okay. And what did you find out about the 22 process for the principal to make the appointment to 23 the parent textbook committee? 24 A. My understanding from Pat Ownby who called me, 25 she stated that principals can appoint parents to a 0095 01 textbook committee, and there's a form that has to be 02 filled out and submitted to the committee -- or the 03 person that's running the committee or in charge of the 04 committee. 05 Q. Did you fill out that form for Mrs. Jenkins? 06 A. No. 07 Q. What did you tell Mrs. Jenkins was the reason 08 you didn't fill out the form? 09 A. I said that I had spoken with Ms. Brooks and 10 that there were -- that in order to be on this textbook 11 committee, that this textbook committee was looking at 12 the appropriateness of the materials. 13 Q. Did Mrs. Jenkins tell you that she did not 14 want to be on the committee? 15 A. Did she tell me she didn't want to be on it? 16 Q. After you told her what the committee's 17 purpose was, did she tell you, I don't want to be on 18 that committee? 19 A. No, she didn't say that. 20 Q. Did she ever withdraw her request to you to 21 appoint her? 22 A. No. 23 Q. But you declined to appoint her? 24 A. No, that's not what I said. 25 Q. Would you look at paragraph 7 of your 0096 01 affidavit. 02 A. Uh-huh. 03 Q. Did you state in your affidavit, I decline to 04 appoint her? 05 A. I didn't say to her, I decline to appoint you. 06 I thought that's what you were saying I said. 07 Q. I'm sorry. 08 A. I'm sorry. I just basically -- what I said to 09 her was that this committee was charged with looking at 10 the appropriateness of the material. If there are bad 11 pictures in there, if there's slang, if there's cuss 12 words, that kind of thing, and it didn't address the 13 content, which I thought that was really what she was 14 after. 15 Q. But she never told you after you explained 16 that to her that she wanted to withdraw her request, 17 did she? 18 A. We didn't discuss it any further. 19 Q. You just declined to appoint her at that 20 point? 21 A. I didn't decline. I never did anything. I 22 didn't decline. I didn't tell her. I just didn't -- I 23 didn't put her on because I didn't think that that was 24 what she was after. 25 Q. Well, your affidavit says in paragraph 7, I 0097 01 declined to appoint her. 02 A. Right. And I didn't tell her that. I just 03 didn't -- in order for me to -- I didn't fill out the 04 textbook committee -- and maybe that was the wrong term 05 for me to use -- but basically I didn't appoint her 06 because I didn't think that's what she was after. I 07 mean, there was no malicious intent or anything else. 08 Q. Let me ask you to look at Exhibit 28. 09 A. 28? 10 Q. Yes. This is a petition for addition of a 11 specific academic 6th grade math classes at Armstrong 12 Middle School for the year 1999-2000. Have you seen 13 this before? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Is this similar to the parents' petition that 16 you said -- you said you saw earlier? 17 A. No. 18 Q. This does relate to your school, does it not? 19 A. I mean, it has my school's name on it, but 20 that's all that I see. 21 Q. And it has the address -- 22 A. I'm sorry, and our address. 23 Q. 3805 Timberline, is that your address? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. And it makes a request for a specific textbook 0098 01 and course of study, the Glencoe/McGraw-Hill Division, 02 Mathematics? 03 A. Can I read this? 04 Q. Sure. 05 A. Thanks. (Witness reviews documents.) Okay. 06 Q. Now, it makes a specific request for a 07 specific course of study or textbook; is that right? 08 A. A textbook, yes. 09 Q. All right. And did you know that one of these 10 was circulating? 11 A. No, I didn't. I know that -- no, I didn't. 12 Q. I'll ask you if you'd look at Exhibit 29. 13 Exhibit 29 is a flier on American Youth Soccer 14 Organization. And I asked you earlier about fliers 15 that you sent home with the children in their backpacks 16 from the middle school. Is this an example of a type 17 of flier that would be sent home? 18 A. It's hard to answer. I mean, they're all so 19 different. I mean, they're different across the board 20 but, I mean, it could look like that. It could look 21 differently. 22 Q. This flier announces a registration for youth 23 soccer sponsored by the American Youth Soccer 24 Organization. Have you heard of the American Youth 25 Soccer Organization? 0099 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Do you distribute fliers on their 03 registrations? 04 A. I don't recall that at my campus. 05 Q. Let's look at the next one. The next one is 06 Exhibit 30. This is a Girl Scout recruitment night. 07 Have you ever distributed fliers at your campus on Girl 08 Scout recruitment or Girl Scout information? 09 A. Probably, but I don't remember what it looks 10 like. 11 Q. Exhibit 31 is the Plano Baseball Association 12 and Plano Girls Softball Association. Have you ever 13 distributed fliers -- 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. -- on this? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. Maybe not this particular one, but -- 19 Q. I understand. 20 A. -- of that organization. 21 Q. Okay. But you have distributed fliers for the 22 Plano Baseball Association and Plano Girls Softball 23 Association? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And when you distribute these fliers on these 0100 01 registrations or announcements of upcoming seasons, do 02 these typically go home with the children in their 03 overnight backpacks? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. That's the way you typically do it? 06 A. Yes -- no, that's incorrect. I'm sorry. What 07 we're told usually is to post them. Usually there's 08 one flier, and we post them. I can't think of 09 anything -- and there probably are some, but I can't 10 think of any right now -- that are enough for all of 11 ours kids on our campus. 12 These -- usually we only get a handful of 13 these, and we post them. There's a bulletin board that 14 we have public information on that bulletin board. 15 Q. And if somebody -- if a parent or a student 16 wanted to get a copy of one of these, they could come 17 to the office and pick it up? 18 A. If we had them. 19 Q. Okay. If you had enough of them, you'd send 20 them out in fliers to the kids? 21 A. Not unless it said specifically from 22 communications to do that. 23 Q. Would it surprise you if there were parents 24 who are going to testify that these do come home in the 25 backpacks, would it? 0101 01 A. Not at middle school, they don't. We don't 02 pay for the printing to do it. 03 Q. How about PSA, Exhibit 31? Is that the type 04 of flier that would be -- 05 A. Posted. 06 Q. -- posted or distributed? 07 A. It probably would look something similar to 08 that. 09 Q. How about Exhibit 33 at your school? Indian 10 Guides, Indian Princess, is this the type of flier? 11 A. I've never seen that one. 12 Q. Do you know who the YMCA is? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Have you ever posted or distributed materials 15 that they have printed? 16 A. I don't remember. We do lots of different 17 ones. I couldn't tell you specifically. Sometimes I 18 know what they are and am familiar with the 19 organization. Sometimes they're ones I haven't seen 20 before. 21 Q. The next one is Exhibit 34. That's the first 22 annual punt, pass, and kick contest sponsored by the 23 Plano East Quarterback Club. Have you ever seen a 24 flier like this before? 25 A. I don't recall seeing this. 0102 01 Q. Do you keep at your school any kind of a 02 register indicating the fliers that you have posted? 03 A. We started that this year. 04 Q. Why? 05 A. Because sometimes someone would ask something, 06 and I couldn't recall if we did it. So now I can go 07 back and look to see what went home and -- we don't 08 keep the ones that post. But if it's anything we send 09 home that we're asked to send home with the students or 10 anything that we as a school send home, just so I can 11 reference it. 12 Q. What types of things do you send home? 13 A. Just school stuff, like fliers on meetings, if 14 a team wants us to send their newsletter, you know, to 15 their kids. 16 Q. A team being? 17 A. The team of teachers. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. That type of thing, newsletters, progress 20 reports. 21 Q. Exhibit 35 is a Little Caesars Pizza Kit. And 22 it has a notation on the side, Armstrong Middle School. 23 A. Yes. This is a fund-raiser. We sold this at 24 open house as a fund-raiser. 25 Q. And do those fliers go home to the kids? 0103 01 A. The teachers sent them home with their 02 students. 03 Q. Okay. 04 A. Because it's a school sponsored fund-raiser. 05 Q. Exhibit No. 36 is a Market Insurance Company 06 Youth -- American Youth student and sports insurance. 07 Have you ever seen this before? 08 A. Our sports, I believe, go through athletics, 09 so I don't recall seeing this. 10 Q. Exhibit 39 is a Paperboard recycling program. 11 This is a paperboard recycling program. Have you ever 12 seen something like this go through the school system? 13 A. Well, we have -- 14 Q. At your school, I mean? 15 A. We just started this year a recycling program. 16 And I believe the District approved BFI to help us with 17 that. 18 Q. BFI is a-- 19 A. They're the ones who put out the canisters. 20 Q. They're a trash collection private company? 21 A. And I'm not exactly sure that's the name of 22 it, but they're going to help with recycling. 23 Q. Okay. And so you would put out an 24 announcement about that to the students? 25 A. The students participate in helping with that 0104 01 program. 02 Q. This indicates that there is a box -- it's 03 just an example -- there's a box in the back of the 04 comments. Now, do you have a place at your school 05 where you encourage kids to bring things to school to 06 recycle? 07 A. We have one in our parking lot. 08 Q. Did you send out a flier to the parents 09 through the students? 10 A. A newsletter. 11 Q. Through a newsletter? 12 A. It's in the newsletter, PTA newsletter. 13 Q. All right. So then the PTA newsletter was 14 distributed to the parents? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Through your fliers -- through your take-home 17 packs? 18 A. No. They're either mailed or the kids take 19 them home. If it's the three-week one, the kids take 20 them home. That's a team newsletter. If it's PTA, 21 they get mailed home. 22 Q. So you use the kids from time to time to take 23 information and fliers home to the parents about what's 24 happening? 25 A. If it's school related usually. Like if it's 0105 01 something from our campus, for instance, team 02 newsletter, report cards, three-week reports, that kind 03 of thing. 04 Q. But the newsletter for your Parent-Teacher 05 Association included information about BFI's recycling 06 program? 07 A. Or the recycling. And that gets mailed from 08 the PTA. 09 Q. Exhibit 43 is a fire prevention poster 10 contest. Do you ever see anything like that? 11 A. Yes. That came through communications. 12 Q. And did you distribute that to the parents 13 through the students? 14 A. No. I gave it to the art teacher and asked if 15 they wanted to participate. They do it every year. 16 Q. Exhibit 44 is an announcement of The Classics, 17 a nonprofit arts education organization offering 18 children fun and exciting art and theater classes that 19 nurture creative and encourage self-expression. Have 20 you ever seen this before? 21 A. I don't recall seeing this. 22 Q. 45 is Plano ISD Six Flag tickets. 23 A. I think communications sent something out with 24 Six Flags, but I don't know if it was this particular 25 one. I just know that anything through communications 0106 01 they send us, we send out. 02 Q. Okay. How would you send it out? 03 A. It depends on how they tell us to send it out. 04 We follow their directives. 05 Q. So sometimes they'll tell you to post it and 06 sometimes they'll tell you to distribute it to the 07 students? 08 A. Yes -- yes, it depends. 09 Q. Now, if you're going to distribute fliers to 10 the students for them to take home, how is the actual 11 distribution done at Armstrong? 12 A. Let's say we're sending a flier to -- 13 regarding our math meeting home. We would send it out 14 through advisory, per the number of students they have 15 in their advisory class. 16 Q. Is that like homeroom? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Is it last period of the day or -- 19 A. No. It's different for each grade level. 20 Q. So you'd reach each student in their advisory 21 period? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. And they would be handed that information to 24 take home to their parents? 25 A. Yes. 0107 01 Q. So the student actually transports the flier 02 from the school to the home for the parents to review? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. And 46 you said you haven't ever seen before. 05 Look at Exhibit 63, if you would. Have you ever seen 06 this e-mail before? 07 A. Just when we met with -- after the lawsuit was 08 filed, we got information on the lawsuit. It was in 09 that packet that they sent all of us. 10 Q. Who was your cluster assistant superintendent? 11 A. Jeff Bailey. 12 Q. Okay. Do you ever receive any e-mails from 13 Mr. Bailey? 14 A. Do I? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Is the e-mail system at the District a way in 18 which the administrators of the District can quickly 19 communicate with the principals? 20 A. If they read their e-mails. 21 Q. Do you read yours? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. It's intended to be a communication device, 24 isn't it? 25 A. Yes. 0108 01 Q. Do you get from time to time updated 02 information from Mr. Bailey concerning what's happening 03 on the campuses? 04 A. I'm not sure I understand. My campus or other 05 campuses? 06 Q. Well, if there's some updated information that 07 you need to get from Mr. Bailey about something that's 08 going on that he's learned about, would he sometimes 09 communicate with you that way? 10 A. Usually if it's something important, we're 11 going to hear in person from him. He doesn't like to 12 put stuff like that -- and he's a communicator. He 13 likes to verbally communicate with us directly. 14 MR. BUNDREN: Let's take a short break. 15 (Recess from 11:26 to 11:31 a.m.) 16 MR. BUNDREN: Thank you. I have no 17 further questions. 18 (Deposition concluded at 11:31 a.m.) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0109 01 CHANGES AND SIGNATURE 02 PAGE LINE CHANGE REASON 03 ------------------------------------------------------ 04 ------------------------------------------------------ 05 ------------------------------------------------------ 06 ------------------------------------------------------ 07 ------------------------------------------------------ 08 ------------------------------------------------------ 09 ------------------------------------------------------ 10 ------------------------------------------------------ 11 ------------------------------------------------------ 12 ------------------------------------------------------ 13 ------------------------------------------------------ 14 ------------------------------------------------------ 15 ------------------------------------------------------ 16 ------------------------------------------------------ 17 ------------------------------------------------------ 18 ------------------------------------------------------ 19 ------------------------------------------------------ 20 ------------------------------------------------------ 21 ------------------------------------------------------ 22 ------------------------------------------------------ 23 ------------------------------------------------------ 24 ------------------------------------------------------ 25 ------------------------------------------------------ 0110 01 I, DONELLA GREEN, have read the foregoing 02 deposition and hereby affix my signature that same is 03 true and correct, except as noted above. 04 05 06 07 ---------------------------- 08 DONELLA GREEN 09 10 THE STATE OF --------------------- ) 11 COUNTY OF ------------------------ ) 12 12 13 Before me, -----------------------------------, 13 personally appeared DONELLA GREEN, known to me (or 14 proved to me under oath or through -------------------) 14 (description of identity card or other document) to be 15 the person whose name is subscribed to the foregoing 15 instrument and acknowledged to me that they executed 16 the same for purposes and consideration therein 16 expressed. 17 17 Given under my hand and seal of office this 18 18 --------- day of ---------------------, -------. 19 19 20 20 ---------------------------- 21 NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR 21 THE STATE OF ---------------- 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 0111 01 STATE OF TEXAS * 02 COUNTY OF DALLAS * 03 This is to certify that I, Sunny Schaen, Certified 04 Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas, 05 certify that the foregoing deposition of DONELLA GREEN, 06 was reported stenographically by me at the time and 07 place indicated, said witness having been placed under 08 oath by me, and that the deposition is a true record of 09 the testimony given by the witness. 10 I further certify that I am neither counsel for nor 11 related to any party in this cause and am not 12 financially interested in its outcome. 13 Given under my hand of office on this the 13th day 14 of October, 2000. 15 16 16 17 ---------------------------- 17 Sunny Schaen, Texas CSR 3638 18 Expiration Date: 12/31/01 18 19 JANIS ROGERS & ASSOCIATES 19 1545 West Mockingbird Lane 20 Suite 1032 20 Dallas, Texas 75235 21 Tel. No. 214/631-2655 21 22 22 23 23 Taxable cost of original charged to Plaintiffs 24 Celia J. Chiu, et al., 24 Atty: Mr. William Charles Bundren: $---------------- 25 25