0001 01 IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS 01 FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT 02 02 03 CELIA J. CHIU; DENISE BROWN; * 03 VERONICA C. JENKINS; DENISE * 04 KIRKE; ALFRED G. KIRKE; AND * 04 KENNETH R. JOHNSON * 05 * 05 Plaintiffs/Appellees, * 06 * 06 VS. * 07 * 07 PLANO INDEPENDENT SCHOOL * 08 DISTRICT, ET AL. * 08 * 09 Defendants, * CIVIL ACTION NO. 09 * 00-40613 10 JAMES DAVIS, DR., PISD CENTRAL * 10 CLUSTER AREA ASSISTANT * 11 SUPERINTENDENT; MARILYN BROOKS, * 11 ASSOCIATE SUPERINTENDENT FOR * 12 CURRICULUM AND INSTRUCTIONS; * 12 JAMES WOHLGEHAGEN, DR.; * 13 ROXANNE BURLESON, PRINCIPAL * 13 HAGGARD MIDDLE SCHOOL; CORKY * 14 CRISWELL, PRINCIPAL HENDRICK * 14 MIDDLE SCHOOL; BEVERLY SELLERS, * 15 PRINCIPAL WILSON MIDDLE SCHOOL, * 15 * 16 Defendants/Appellants. * 16 17 18 19 ******************************************** 20 ORAL DEPOSITION OF 21 CORKY CRISWELL 22 OCTOBER 4, 2000 23 ******************************************** 24 25 0002 01 ORAL DEPOSITION OF CORKY CRISWELL, produced as 02 a witness at the instance of the Plaintiffs, and duly 03 sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered cause 04 on the 4th day of October, 2000, from 1:50 p.m. to 05 4:03 p.m., before Sunny Schaen, a CSR in and for the 06 State of Texas, reported stenographically, at the 07 offices of Plano Independent School District, 2700 West 08 15th Street, Plano, Texas 75075, pursuant to the 09 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and the provision 10 stated on the record. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0003 01 A P P E A R A N C E S 02 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 02 Mr. William Charles Bundren 03 Attorney at Law 03 P. O. Box 702647 04 Dallas, Texas 75370 04 (972) 630-3555 05 05 06 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: 06 Mr. Charles J. Crawford 07 ABERNATHY ROEDER BOYD & JOPLIN, P.C. 07 1700 Redbud Boulevard 08 Suite 300 08 P.O. Box 1210 09 McKinney, Texas 75070-1210 09 (214) 544-4000 10 10 11 ALSO PRESENT: Ms. Ronni Jenkins 11 Mr. Kenneth R. Johnson 12 Mr. Alfred Kirke 12 13 13 14 14 15 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 0004 01 I N D E X 01 02 WITNESS PAGE 02 CORKY CRISWELL 03 03 EXAMINATION 04 BY: MR. BUNDREN 5 04 05 05 06 EXHIBITS INDEX 06 07 EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED 07 08 66 Diagram of Hendrick Middle School 33 08 09 67 Diagram of Cafeteria Area of Hendrick 38 09 Middle School 10 10 68 Student Parent Policy Guide 1997 - 1998 51 11 11 69 Affidavit of Corky Criswell 74 12 12 70 1999 - 2000 Student Parent Policy Guide 113 13 13 14 14 15 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 0005 01 P R O C E E D I N G S 02 REPORTER'S NOTE: The following was stated on the 03 record in the deposition of Marilyn Brooks, and by 04 agreement of all parties will also apply for this 05 deposition. 06 * * * * * * 07 MR. BUNDREN: Do you want to take this 08 under the Rules? 09 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes. 10 * * * * * * 11 CORKY CRISWELL, 12 having being first duly sworn, testified as follows: 13 EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. BUNDREN: 15 Q. Would you state your name for the record, 16 please. 17 A. Okay. Corky Criswell. 18 Q. Mr. Criswell, you've been referred to as Corky 19 or Corky Criswell. 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. Is Corky a -- 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 Q. -- nickname that you have? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. What is your legal name? 0006 01 A. Jack Criswell, Junior. 02 Q. What is your date of birth? 03 A. 10/14/44. 04 Q. Where were you born? 05 A. Fort Worth, Texas. 06 Q. What is your social security number? 07 A. ***-**-****. 08 Q. How about your driver's license number? 09 A. That I have to look up. 10 Q. Can you look it up for us? 11 A. I sure can. *********. 12 Q. Is that a Texas operator's license? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Mr. Criswell, my name is Charles Bundren. I'm 15 an attorney. I represent the Plaintiffs in a 16 lawsuit -- 17 A. Right. 18 Q. -- that's been filed against the Plano 19 Independent School District, and I believe also against 20 you as one of the individual Defendants; is that right? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Have you ever had your deposition taken 23 before? 24 A. Never have. 25 Q. Have you ever testified under oath before? 0007 01 A. I have in court, uh-huh. 02 Q. And what was the nature of that testimony? 03 A. It was a trial certifying a young man as an 04 adult in a murder case. 05 Q. So it was a criminal action? 06 A. Yes, sir. 07 Q. Did you testify as a witness? 08 A. Uh-huh. 09 Q. Was he one of your students? 10 A. He was one of my former students. 11 Q. Okay. Any other time that you have testified 12 under oath? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Okay. The deposition today is as if we were 15 in front of the Court and the jury at the time the case 16 is called to trial. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. And the court reporter is going to take down 19 your testimony and she'll put it in a little booklet. 20 You'll have a chance to review that, if you wish. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. It will have my questions and your answers. 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. And this is just as if the judge was here and 25 the jury was here. And I'm entitled to read your 0008 01 deposition at trial and then I will cross-examine you 02 about that deposition. If your testimony is 03 inconsistent at trial to what it is today, I'm entitled 04 to call that to the attention of the Court. 05 A. Okay. 06 Q. I just want you to understand what we're doing 07 here. 08 A. Okay, sure. 09 Q. If you need a break, if you'll let me know, 10 I'll try to get to a stopping place -- 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. -- where we can take a break in my line of 13 questioning. I'd like to have some agreements with you 14 as we start off that if I ask you a question that you 15 don't understand, please ask me to repeat it -- 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. -- before you try to answer it. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. Would you do that? 20 A. I sure will. 21 Q. If you don't hear my question, would you ask 22 me to repeat it before you try to answer? 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. I want to be sure that I'm asking you 25 questions you understand and you're understanding my 0009 01 question before you try to answer it. 02 A. Okay. 03 Q. It's very important. Do you understand that? 04 A. Uh-huh, yes. 05 Q. Have you ever been convicted of a crime? 06 A. No, sir. 07 Q. Where do you currently reside? 08 A. I reside in Roanoke, Texas. 09 Q. Roanoke? 10 A. Uh-huh. I also have a residence here in 11 Plano. I'm over there during the week. I work for the 12 Northwest Independent School District. And then I have 13 a residence here in Plano also. We haven't bought a 14 home yet. 15 Q. I see. What is your address over in Roanoke 16 where you live? 17 A. Okay. It's -- let me think -- 2700 -- what is 18 that -- Cannon Parkway. And it's apartment 2724. ZIP 19 is 76 -- 20 Q. 2724? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. ZIP is 76262, I believe. 24 Q. And that's in Roanoke? 25 A. Roanoke, uh-huh. 0010 01 Q. What's the name of the apartments? 02 A. Boulder Ridge. 03 Q. Boulder Ridge? 04 A. Uh-huh. 05 Q. Who resides there with you? 06 A. My wife. 07 Q. What is her name? 08 A. Donna. 09 Q. Donna Criswell? 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. How long have you and Donna been married? 12 A. That's not fair to ask. 13 Q. I know it's not. 14 A. 32 years. I had to think a minute. 15 Q. There's been some testimony in this case about 16 a Donna Criswell that used to work for the Plano 17 Independent -- 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. -- School District. Is that your wife? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. So she is also in public education? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. Let me ask you, if you could, to do one thing. 24 It's certainly okay to gesture, nod your head -- 25 A. Okay. 0011 01 Q. -- and everything else, but the court reporter 02 needs to get a verbal response. 03 A. Okay. All right. 04 Q. So if you could say yes or no -- 05 A. Yes, okay. 06 Q. Uh-huh and huh-uh are hard to transcribe. 07 A. Okay. All right. 08 Q. One other agreement I'd like to have with you, 09 Mr. Criswell, is that if you'll let me finish my 10 question before you start to answer, I'll let you 11 finish your answer before I ask the next question. 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. Great. You did it perfectly. 14 A. All right. 15 Q. Where did you grow up? 16 A. Well, I was born in Fort Worth, Texas. And 17 then we lived there when I was in the --moved from 18 there to Gainesville, Texas, when I was in the 19 2nd grade. So my hometown, I guess, basically is 20 Gainesville, Texas. I graduated from high school in 21 Gainesville. 22 Q. What year did you graduate? 23 A. 1963. 24 Q. Have you ever served in the military? 25 A. No, sir. 0012 01 Q. What did you do after graduation from high 02 school? 03 A. Went to college. 04 Q. Where did you go to college? 05 A. I went to Texas Christian University for a 06 year, and then went to Austin College in Sherman where 07 I received my degree. 08 Q. What year did you receive your degree? 09 A. 1970. 10 Q. What did you receive your degree in? 11 A. I had a bachelor of arts degree. 12 Q. Bachelor of what? 13 A. Bachelor of arts. 14 Q. Arts, okay. 15 A. In history -- 16 Q. Major -- 17 A. -- and physical education and health. 18 Q. After you graduated from college, what did you 19 do? 20 A. I was employed by the Callisburg Independent 21 School District as a football coach? 22 Q. Hellsburg? 23 A. Callisburg. 24 Q. Callisburg? 25 A. C-a-l-l-i-s-b-u-r-g. 0013 01 Q. Did you play football in Sherman? 02 A. At Austin College. 03 Q. Yes. 04 A. Yes, I did. 05 Q. Where is Callisburg located? 06 A. It's between Sherman and Gainesville, right 07 off of Highway 82. 08 Q. And you went there as a coach? 09 A. Uh-huh, coach and teacher. 10 Q. How many years did you stay there? 11 A. I was there one year. 12 Q. What did you do then? 13 A. We left Callisburg and went to Bovina, which 14 is out in the Texas Panhandle. And I was a 15 teacher-coach out there. 16 Q. Was Donna also teaching at the same time? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Did y'all meet in college? 19 A. We met in the summer -- in the summer there in 20 Sherman. She was working in Sherman, and I met her 21 there. She went to East Texas State. 22 Q. Okay. And so you both were in public 23 education at Callisburg? 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. And then Bovina too? 0014 01 A. Yes, in Bovina also. 02 Q. How long did you stay in Bovina? 03 A. We were in Bovina for six years. 04 Q. And what did you do in Bovina? 05 A. I was a coach and teacher. 06 Q. And where did you go after that? 07 A. We came to Plano. 08 Q. What year did you come to Plano? 09 A. Oh, gosh, let's see. I think it was 1977 or 10 '76 school year. 11 Q. What position did you take at Plano? 12 A. I was a coach at Haggard Middle School. 13 Q. Did you also teach? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. How long did you work with the Plano 16 Independent School District? 17 A. Twenty-four years. 18 Q. When did you leave Plano? 19 A. I left this summer. 20 Q. Summer of 2000? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. And where did you go after leaving? 23 A. I went to the Northwest Independent School 24 District. 25 Q. Where is that located? 0015 01 A. That's located in Justin. The mailing address 02 is 1800 Highway 114, Justin, Texas. 03 Q. Out there by Keller, Justin -- 04 A. Yes. It's right across the highway from the 05 Texas Motor Speedway -- is our administration. We've 06 got -- it's a consolidated school district. It's a 07 large consolidated school district -- large in square 08 miles, not large in population. 09 Q. All right. Northwest -- or northeast Tarrant 10 County? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Okay. What position did you take there? 13 A. I'm an executive director for human resources. 14 Q. Who is your immediate supervisor? 15 A. Keith Sockwell. 16 Q. Mr. Sockwell used to work for the Plano 17 Independent School District? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Did you know him here? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. Did he recruit you to go out there? 22 A. Yes, he did. 23 Q. Let me talk for a moment about the different 24 positions that you have had with the Plano Independent 25 School District from 1976 to the year 2000. Kind of 0016 01 take me through the history, if you would. 02 A. I was at Haggard Middle School as a 03 teacher-coach. 04 Q. What years were those? 05 A. '76 to -- I want to say -- '81 or '82. I 06 can't -- I can't exactly remember the time. And then 07 from there, I was a teacher-coach at Clark High School. 08 And I think that was -- I was there till '85 or '86. 09 And then I was a dean of students administrator at 10 Wilson Middle School. 11 Q. What years were you at Wilson? 12 A. I was trying to think. I think till '89. 13 Q. So about '85 to '89? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. And then from there, I was an assistant 17 principal at Hendrick Middle School till '92 or '93. 18 Then I was assistant principal at Plano Senior High 19 School. 20 Q. What years was that? 21 A. That was the '93-'94 school year, and then 22 assistant principal at Wilson Middle School, back when 23 it was a middle school. 24 Q. What years was that? 25 A. I'm trying to think. I was there three years, 0017 01 so when was that? What did you have me for? 02 Q. I've got up till '94. 03 A. '94? 04 Q. Yes. 05 A. Okay. It must have been till '96-'97 -- the 06 '96-'97 school year, and then went to Hendrick Middle 07 School. 08 Q. What position? 09 A. As assistant principal till mid-term. Then 10 the principal retired, and then became the principal of 11 Hendrick Middle School till June of this year -- of 12 2000. 13 Q. So you were principal of Hendrick Middle 14 School for about three years? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. From '97 to 2000; is that right? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. When did you receive your teacher's 19 certificate? 20 A. When? 21 Q. Yes, sir. 22 A. Oh, let's see. When I graduated in 1970, I 23 had an emergency permit, so '71-'72. 24 Q. Do you hold any other certificates from the 25 Texas Education Agency? 0018 01 A. Yes, I do. I have a mid-management 02 certification. 03 Q. When did you receive your mid-management 04 certification? 05 A. 1983. 06 Q. Any other certificates? 07 A. No, sir. 08 Q. Do you have a master's? 09 A. I have a master's degree. 10 Q. When did you receive your master's? 11 A. I received that in 1983 also. 12 Q. Where did you take your master's study? 13 A. At East Texas -- well, East Texas State. It 14 is now, I think, Texas A&M Commerce, but it was East 15 Texas State when I went there. 16 Q. And what did you receive your master's in? 17 A. In secondary education. 18 Q. What did you write your thesis on? 19 A. I wrote my -- I didn't. I took an extra 20 course in lieu of the thesis. I took an extra six 21 hours. 22 Q. Any other educational degrees? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Any other certifications by any professional 25 organizations? 0019 01 A. I'm not following what you mean -- 02 professional? 03 Q. You have a mid-management and a teacher's -- 04 A. Right. 05 Q. -- certificate. Any other certifications -- 06 A. No. 07 Q. -- right now? 08 A. No, I do not. 09 Q. Have you published any articles? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Written any books? 12 A. I have not written any books. 13 Q. What professional associations are you a 14 member of? 15 A. At this -- at this moment? 16 Q. Yes, sir. 17 A. Texas Association for School Personnel 18 Administrators, and also the national organization, 19 which is the -- you put -- instead of T, put an A -- 20 American Association for School Personnel 21 Administrators. 22 Q. Any others? 23 A. At this time, no. 24 Q. In the past, what other professional 25 organizations have you been a member of? 0020 01 A. The Texas Association for Secondary School 02 Principals, Texas Middle School Association, National 03 Principals Association, and the National Middle School 04 Association. 05 Q. Okay. Any other professional organizations 06 you've been a member of in the past? 07 A. No, sir. 08 Q. Okay. Now, in all of your training as a 09 school teacher, assistant principal, dean of students, 10 administrator, your certifications, your professional 11 associations, you have received training on what the 12 responsibilities of a school public official are, have 13 you not? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. Given your number of years of 16 experience in public education, your background, your 17 educational background, your certifications, and 18 everything else, you understand that there are certain 19 laws that control the responsibilities of individuals 20 while they're out on school campuses? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You understand that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You've learned that in the past, haven't you? 25 A. Yes. 0021 01 Q. If I told you that students do not lose their 02 First Amendment rights when they pass the schoolhouse 03 gate, you've heard that before, haven't you? 04 A. Yes, I have. 05 Q. Okay. And you've been taught that in your 06 professional career, have you not? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. So you've been taught, in your professional 09 career, that students who are on a school campus have a 10 right during non-curriculum times in a nondisruptive 11 manner to have First Amendment activities between them, 12 discussion of ideas, distribution of literature between 13 them, as long as it's done in a nondisruptive manner? 14 A. Yes, students do. 15 Q. Okay. And you've recognized that and known 16 that for a long time? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. Equally you're aware, are you not, in 19 being an administrator, that teachers, during 20 non-curriculum times have the right to engage in 21 exchange of ideas and exchange of literature between 22 one teacher to another teacher? 23 A. If they so choose to do so, yes, sir. 24 Q. They have that right, and school officials 25 can't prohibit them at -- 0022 01 A. Right. 02 Q. Okay. Are you also aware that parents have 03 certain rights when they come on the school campuses? 04 A. They have some rights, yes, sir. 05 Q. You understand that parents have the right to 06 engage in First Amendment activities with other parents 07 during non-curriculum times in a nondisruptive manner? 08 A. I would assume so, yes. 09 Q. Now, do parents have a right, understand your 10 understanding -- and I'm not speaking of a particular 11 policy here, just your general understanding. Do 12 parents have a right to distribute literature between 13 themselves during non-curriculum times or non-meeting 14 times when they're on school property? 15 A. I'm not quite following your train of thought. 16 Q. Let's assume that there's a meeting of the 17 parents at the school in the evening. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. Non-school hours, not during curriculum, not 20 during teaching time. And the purpose of the meeting 21 is to discuss school issues. 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. Maybe they're going to discuss a curriculum, 24 maybe they're going to discuss a book that the school 25 is going to be using, but it's a parents meeting. It's 0023 01 an opportunity for the school officials and the parents 02 to talk. 03 A. The parents in my building -- okay. 04 Q. Okay. And -- 05 A. My parents in my building; is that what 06 you're -- 07 Q. Right. 08 A. And we're assuming for a question like this? 09 Q. Right. 10 A. Okay, I can make that assumption. 11 Q. Right. And they're at your building. They're 12 in your school building. They're not off at a public 13 library somewhere. They're in a school building. 14 A. They're parents that have children in my 15 building? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. Or they may just be parents who are tax payers 19 of the District and they want to find out about the 20 math that's being taught at the District or the 21 curriculum or the books that are being used at the 22 District -- just a parent, somebody who is a parent -- 23 A. Somebody just to walk in off the street? 24 Q. They're a parent of a child enrolled in the 25 Plano Independent School District -- or the District 0024 01 that you work for, okay. 02 A. Okay. 03 Q. So we have a parents meeting. Parents are 04 there. School official are there. What is your 05 understanding of the right of a parent to distribute a 06 flier to another parent relating to school curriculum 07 or school issues? 08 MR. CRAWFORD: I'll object as vague and 09 overbroad. Go ahead and answer. 10 A. Okay. I guess in taking the context -- and 11 we're assuming right here, I guess, and we can make 12 some assumptions -- to answer your question, 13 theoretically or hypothetically, I guess they probably 14 would have a right to visit with themselves and to, you 15 know, to engage in conversations and such things, as 16 long as it wasn't disruptive or literature being handed 17 out wasn't disruptive element. 18 Q. Now, you were the principal of -- is it 19 Hendrick Middle School? 20 A. Yes, sir, Hendrick Middle School. 21 Q. In the 1998-1999 school year? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And was Hendrick Middle School one of the 24 middle schools that the Plano Independent School 25 District was conducting their pilot program for 0025 01 connected math on? 02 A. No. We had not had that program in our 03 building as of yet. 04 Q. Not yet? 05 A. Not yet. 06 Q. Okay. But it had been a program that you were 07 aware had been piloted in some other middle schools? 08 A. Yes. Being assistant principal at Wilson 09 Middle School, we piloted that program when I was 10 there. 11 Q. Sometime during that school year, there was a 12 parents meeting at Hendrick Middle School to discuss 13 connected math? 14 A. Yes. It was a -- yeah, an informational 15 meeting for my parents for connected math. 16 Q. For connected math? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And it was an after hours meeting? 19 A. Yes. It was 7:00 in the evening. 20 Q. In the evening? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Okay. Who decided to have a meeting at 23 Hendrick Middle School to talk about connected math? 24 A. Other than myself? 25 Q. Yes. Who participated in the decision to even 0026 01 have a meeting? 02 A. Okay. Our math coordinator participated in 03 the meeting, Dr. Jim Wohlgehagen. 04 Q. Okay. Who else? 05 A. He was the primary -- primarily the one 06 presenting the program. 07 Q. Let me back up and ask my question a little 08 bit differently -- 09 A. Okay. 10 Q. -- because you actually kind of jumped ahead 11 of me there. 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. There was a decision made to have the meeting. 14 Who made that decision? 15 A. It was my understanding that the decision to 16 have that meeting was made by the Board of Trustees. 17 Q. And you were directed as the principal to 18 select a date and time for the meeting? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Do you recall about when that meeting -- what 21 day it was or what month it was? 22 A. It was in October. And I want to say middle 23 October. 24 Q. Of 1998? 25 A. '98, yes, sir. Yeah, a couple of years ago. 0027 01 Q. Okay. Evening meeting at the school. And 02 where was this meeting going to occur? 03 A. In our cafetorium. 04 Q. If you would, Mr. Criswell, would you just 05 kind of draw me a diagram of Hendrick Middle School. 06 And really what I want on this piece of paper is just 07 something that shows me the relative -- where the 08 streets are, the intersections are, and just kind of -- 09 if this was going to be a plat of school property, just 10 kind of show me where things are. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. And then label it, if you would. 13 A. This will be north. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. We'll make this south. 16 Q. All right. Why don't you put an arrow 17 pointing north -- that way. 18 A. Okay, all right. 19 Q. There we go. 20 A. I'll do this like that, okay. The building 21 sits hunkerjaw. It doesn't sit square, north and 22 south. 23 Q. Hunkerjaw? 24 A. That's my Gainesville coming out in me. I'm 25 sorry. Let's see. I'll draw squares. I'm not much of 0028 01 an artist. I didn't do well in art. 02 Okay. This will be the front. There's a 03 driveway that comes in and out right there. There's 04 also a driveway that comes -- this side in. 05 Q. Why don't you label that as driveway. 06 A. Okay. And then it goes around this way and 07 out. There's also a little drive right here. 08 Q. Where is parking at? 09 A. Okay. Parking is in all these areas right in 10 here. They've got parking over here. There's parking 11 here -- parking back here in the back end of the 12 building also. 13 Q. So all the dashed lines on your diagram -- 14 A. Are parking, yeah. There's parking. Can we 15 put parking here? 16 Q. Sure. And this is the front door of the 17 building? 18 A. This is the front, uh-huh. 19 Q. And is there a street -- 20 A. There's a street that -- and I didn't -- well, 21 we'll -- I'll put the street right here. And that's 22 the street. And I believe that's Red River Drive. 23 Q. Red River? 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. Why don't you write that on there. 0029 01 A. Right there. 02 Q. Now, is there a street on the north side? 03 A. No. 04 Q. What is on the north of the school property? 05 A. There's a park. 06 Q. Is it a public park? 07 A. It's a public park. 08 Q. Do you know what the name of it is? 09 A. I don't know what the name of it is. 10 Q. Okay. How about on the east side of the 11 school? 12 A. We have a football field back behind here. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. There. Okay. And then -- 15 Q. What about south, south of the drive? Is 16 there anything there? 17 A. There's a street here, and I do not recall the 18 name of that street. 19 Q. Why don't you just put street just so we'll -- 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. Now, on the night in question, I assume that 22 the parents could come and park anywhere in the 23 parking -- 24 A. Anywhere that there was -- 25 Q. -- spaces? 0030 01 A. -- availability, uh-huh. 02 Q. What doors did you have open to the building? 03 A. We had the front doors open -- there. The 04 back door was open. 05 Q. Okay. Why don't you put back door here. 06 A. Okay. All right. 07 Q. Any other doors open? 08 A. And we had -- yeah, I had to run down and 09 unlock one. You reminded me that I did. I had to run 10 down. There's a door down here by the band hall that I 11 had to run down and unlock, along with a rest room. I 12 had to unlock a rest room also. I'm going to put door. 13 Q. Okay. Now, where in relation to the doors was 14 the cafeteria or cafetorium? 15 A. The door of the cafetorium is going to be in 16 this area right here, and runs back thataway. 17 Q. And I assume that to get from the parking lot 18 to the cafeteria, they've got to walk through the 19 hallways of the school? 20 A. Right, or just come in this door in there, or 21 in here. It's really not a -- it's really more like a 22 foyer. It's not a hallway. 23 Q. Okay. Right here on the entrance way to the 24 foyer? 25 A. Uh-huh, it's glass doors. 0031 01 Q. Why don't you label where the foyer is. Now, 02 the meeting was being conducted inside the cafeteria? 03 A. In the cafetorium. 04 Q. Okay. 05 A. Yes, sir. 06 Q. And there was seating in there, I assume? 07 A. Yes, there was seating. We had seats set up. 08 In fact, I had to put some more seats -- some more 09 chairs down. The night custodian did not have enough 10 chairs put down. 11 Q. And so the invitation was sent out to the 12 parents. And how did you communicate to the parents 13 about the meeting you were going to have that night? 14 A. We did it in three different ways. We did it 15 over announcements during our announcement period 16 during the morning for the students. 17 Q. To the student -- and then relied upon them to 18 go tell their parents? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. We told them -- we asked the students to -- 22 that there would be a meeting here and we needed them 23 to leave the building as clean as they could, exit the 24 building, we were going to have a meeting up here that 25 night. 0032 01 Q. How else did you communicate the meeting to 02 the parents? 03 A. We put it on our marquee? 04 Q. Out front? 05 A. Out front. 06 Q. Okay. How else? 07 A. I informed my PTA board, and they did their 08 phone chain. 09 Q. Okay. 10 A. And I believe that's all. I cannot think of 11 any other -- I don't know of any other way we did it. 12 Q. Did you send any fliers home in the students' 13 backpacks, distribute anything through the fliers or 14 take-home folders? 15 A. We may or may -- to my knowledge, I don't know 16 if we did or not. I cannot truthfully answer that. I 17 don't know if we did or not. 18 Q. That is a way that you have communicated in 19 the past with your -- 20 A. We have in the past, yes. 21 Q. All right. Now -- 22 A. But that particular time, I -- I cannot say 23 that we did or did not. 24 Q. Let me get you to sign that, if you would. 25 Just put your signature on it and date it. 0033 01 A. It's not going to be to scale, now. 02 Q. I understand. 03 A. Okay. 04 MR. BUNDREN: I'm going to mark this 05 diagram as Exhibit 66. 06 (Exhibit No. 66 marked.) 07 A. Okay. 08 Q. Now, let me ask you to draw me one other 09 diagram just of the cafetorium that night, okay. And 10 show the entrances to the cafetorium and, you know, 11 like put it in the center and then how the parents 12 would enter and exit to the cafetorium. 13 A. Okay. There's a stage right here. I'm not 14 good at drawing stages. 15 Q. Is it an elevated stage? 16 A. It's an elevated stage. And then there's a -- 17 I don't know how to do this. There's -- it's -- in 18 other words, it starts high and goes down low. I can't 19 draw that. 20 Q. It's a -- 21 A. In other words, it's like -- 22 Q. Theater style? 23 A. Yeah, theater. There's an orchestra pit. 24 MR. KELLY: Make a long line in the back 25 and then get them shorter. 0034 01 A. Okay. I can do that. Here's a wall right 02 back here, and then they kind of -- they kind of 03 graduate down to that area, kind of like that, down to 04 the stairs that you can walk down. 05 Q. So the rear of the cafetorium is higher than 06 the first row? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Because it's theater style? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. So you're up high so you can see? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. And then did you have tables at each 13 level? 14 A. No, we did not. We just had chairs, folding 15 chairs. 16 Q. Folding chairs. Approximately how many 17 folding chairs did you have out there that night? 18 A. I can't -- I don't know. 19 Q. Was it 10 or 20 or 100? 20 A. Oh, it was more than 10. And I'd probably say 21 closer to 100. It could have been less than 100. 22 Q. Was it pretty full? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Had a lot of response from the parents? 25 A. Yes, sir. 0035 01 Q. Okay. Now, how did the parents enter into the 02 room? 03 A. This is a big -- it's a big open -- big open 04 area, so I assume they can come in from the front door 05 and the rear door and the door down here by the band 06 hall. 07 Q. Okay. Now, were there walls on the sides here 08 to set that room apart, or was it -- when you walked in 09 the front door, were you -- did you have to go into 10 another hall or did you walk right into -- 11 A. No, there's a wall of glass right here, which 12 is the main office. And then you walk down, and then 13 there's a wall here -- a bank of lockers. 14 Q. Why don't you draw those lockers in. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. And then put in where the office was. 17 A. This is the office. 18 Q. And then is there a wall between the lockers 19 and the cafeteria? 20 A. There's just a bank of lockers with open areas 21 where it goes into classrooms, in between those lockers 22 all the way down. Then there's rest rooms down in this 23 area. Same thing on this side of the building. 24 Q. Okay. Why don't you draw the lockers in over 25 there too. 0036 01 A. (Witness complies.) 02 Q. Okay. Now, is there a wall between the 03 cafeteria and where the students would access their 04 lockers? 05 A. No. 06 Q. Okay. That's an open area? 07 A. It's an open area. 08 Q. Okay. Is this a walkway over here? 09 A. It's a corridor. 10 Q. Corridor, okay. 11 A. By it's part of the cafeteria. I mean, 12 it's -- 13 Q. But you didn't have chairs there, did you? 14 A. Didn't have chairs there, no. 15 Q. If it's a walkway -- 16 A. By fire code, I can't put them there. 17 Q. Right. It's a walkway corridor? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. Why don't you put corridor there. 20 A. (Witness complies.) 21 Q. Okay. And then you said this was the front 22 door? 23 A. Yeah. There's four doors there in all. 24 Q. Okay. Why don't you put foyer there. I think 25 that's what you identified as the foyer. 0037 01 A. Right, uh-huh. 02 Q. Okay. And then was there a corridor over 03 here? 04 A. It's the same as that -- like that over there. 05 Q. Why don't you write corridor there. 06 A. Okay. 07 Q. All right. Now, what time did you get to the 08 meeting that night? 09 A. I never left the building. 10 Q. So you stayed there -- 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- after school was finished? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you lock the building? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you reopen it? 17 A. I personally didn't lock the building. My 18 night custodian did. 19 Q. Okay. And did you reopen the building? 20 A. Yes, we reopened. 21 Q. What time did you reopen the building? 22 A. Let me think. I am not sure what time we 23 reopened it. I know normally we try to open the 24 building an hour to the event. The event was, I 25 believe, 7:00. So I'm going to have to make an 0038 01 assumption that it was 6:00. I can't -- I can't swear 02 that it was -- that it was 6:00. It could have been 03 five after 6:00. It could have been 6:03. It could 04 have been 6:15. 05 Q. Okay. But 30, 45 minutes, an hour before the 06 meeting you'll reopen the -- 07 A. Normally that's what we try to do. 08 Q. I'm going to mark your drawing of the 09 cafetorium as Exhibit 67, and ask you if you'd sign 10 that. 11 A. Okay. 12 (Exhibit No. 67 marked.) 13 Q. Okay. Now, once you opened the doors, did 14 you go into the cafetorium -- or where were you? Did 15 you go back to the office or did you stay out in the 16 corridor area? Where were you once the doors were 17 opened? 18 A. I was all over the building. I mean, I was in 19 my office some. I was in the cafetorium some, checking 20 the rest rooms. I mean, I was checking the outside to 21 make sure paper and trash were -- the building was 22 clean, just like you would if you was having company 23 come to see you. 24 Q. So you were busy being sure everything was in 25 order for the parents that night? 0039 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Is that a fair statement? 03 A. That's -- yeah -- fair. 04 Q. All right. Now, at some point that night, you 05 know, as the parents were -- the parents were mingling 06 in at various times; is that right? 07 A. Yes, uh-huh. 08 Q. And they were coming into the building from 09 either the rear door or the front door or the side 10 doors that you showed me? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Okay. And kind of mingling into the corridors 13 and then eventually finding their way into the meeting 14 place, which was the cafeteria? 15 A. Most of them were walking in and taking a 16 seat. 17 Q. Okay. At some point that night, did you 18 become aware that there were some parents who were 19 handing out materials to other parents? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. Tell me about that. 22 A. As I recollect -- and that's been two years 23 now -- just prior to the -- in fact, I can't give you 24 an exact time frame, but we -- the meeting was fixing 25 to start. And Dr. Jim Wussow, who was also there, 0040 01 informed me that a parent was handing out some 02 literature and was I aware of that. And best of my 03 recollection, I said something to the effect of, no, I 04 was not aware of that. And he pointed to the parents 05 who were handing out the literature, and I went over to 06 the parent and asked if they had permission from anyone 07 to pass out the literature. And the parent said no, 08 they did not. 09 And I said, well, you cannot hand out the 10 literature without prior approval from either myself 11 or one of my designees or somebody from central 12 administration. 13 Q. Now, why did you say that? 14 A. Why did I say what? 15 Q. Why did you tell the parent that they could 16 not hand out any literature without prior approval? 17 A. (A), I did not know that parent -- didn't know 18 who that person was, didn't know if it was a parent 19 of -- it was definitely not a parent of one of my 20 students. I did not recognize this person, didn't know 21 what -- what they were doing, didn't know what they 22 were handing out. 23 And then my understanding of school district 24 policy is that there should be approval for material 25 handing out either by me or by central administration. 0041 01 Q. Did you look at the material that the parent 02 was handing out? 03 A. I did not. I did not have time to look at the 04 material. The meeting was fixing to begin, and I was 05 trying to get things going and rolling and organized to 06 get going. 07 Q. Did the parent refuse to show you what he or 08 she was handing out? 09 A. Refuse? You mean, I'm not going to show you 10 what -- is that what you're saying? 11 Q. Yes. Did they withhold it from you or tell 12 you they weren't going to show you? 13 A. No. And I said -- he offered it, and I said, 14 I do not have time at this moment to look at your 15 material. 16 Q. So he offered it to you? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. He said, here, you can take a look at it? 19 A. Then I said, I do not want to look at it. I 20 don't have time to look at it. 21 Q. Who was the parent that you spoke to that 22 night? 23 A. Well, it was Mr. Johnson at that time. And 24 I -- until the lawsuit, I did not know Mr. Johnson from 25 Adam. 0042 01 Q. Why did you -- but you clearly told 02 Mr. Johnson that pursuant to district policy, he could 03 not distribute literature to the other parents that 04 night? 05 A. No, I did not say that. I said, you cannot 06 distribute the material unless you had prior permission 07 from either me or the district office. 08 Q. Let me hand you Exhibit 27. Have you seen 09 that exhibit before? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. When did you last see that exhibit? 12 A. Oh, gosh. I don't go around reading our 13 policy manual. It's about that thick. But either, you 14 know, as an assistant principal or dean of students or 15 principal, sometime in that time frame, I have looked 16 at district policies to make sure that I'm doing what 17 I'm charged to do by the school board. 18 Q. Have you looked at that exhibit or that policy 19 in the last week or two? 20 A. I have not. 21 Q. Okay. And no one had shown you that and asked 22 you to review it or look at it or anything? 23 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 24 Q. Okay. There's an original of that in here. 25 If you'd look at this stack of exhibits -- if you'd 0043 01 pull out No. 27, I have some questions about that. And 02 they should be in sequential order. There you go. 03 A. I took that off the top. Is that the same 04 one? Are these the same? 05 Q. Yes. 06 A. Okay. 07 Q. Now, I'm going to show you Exhibit 27, and I 08 believe that this has been identified by the 09 superintendent as GKA Local. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. And it has a date of issue on it of 2/17/97? 12 A. I see that. 13 Q. And it has a paragraph called -- well, the 14 title of the policy is Community Relations, Conduct on 15 School Premises; is that right? 16 A. That's what I see here. 17 Q. And then there's a paragraph that says 18 Distribution of Publication; is that correct? 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. Do you see that paragraph? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. That's the one I'm going to be asking you 23 about. 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. Now, when you told Mr. Johnson that he 0044 01 couldn't distribute his literature to the other parents 02 that night -- 03 A. Yes, sir. 04 Q. -- is this policy you were relying on? 05 A. This specific policy? This one right here? 06 Q. Distribution of publications, that's what I'm 07 asking. 08 A. My knowledge of district policy, I couldn't 09 quote him chapter and verse of the policy. I couldn't 10 quote it to you right now. But my understanding of the 11 policies of materials being distributed on school 12 premises, I assume -- if that is the policy, I'd say, 13 yes, that's -- that's the policy. 14 Q. Okay. So on that night, it was your 15 understanding from district policy that before a parent 16 could distribute literature or a flier to another 17 parent at a school meeting, they would have to have 18 prior approval? 19 A. Wait. Go back. I'm not following you. 20 Q. Well, let's go back to the situation 21 exactly -- 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. -- as you saw it and as you observed it that 24 night. 25 A. Okay. 0045 01 Q. That was a meeting of parents? 02 A. Hendrick parents, yes, sir. 03 Q. It was a meeting called by the school 04 officials? 05 A. Called by the school board; is that -- 06 Q. It was called by school officials. 07 A. Well, I -- yes, I set up the meeting, if 08 that's what you mean. 09 Q. You invited them to come to the meeting? 10 A. I invited my parents to come to our 11 information meeting, yes, sir. 12 Q. Well, I assume that there was also a -- you 13 probably put out some kind of notice in the newspaper 14 about a parent meeting that night too, didn't you? 15 A. I don't know. I could have. 16 Q. All right. And the purpose of the meeting was 17 to discuss connected math? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. It's a program that had not been implemented 20 in your school yet? 21 A. As of yet, that's correct. 22 Q. But it was something that you needed the 23 parent to know about? 24 A. It was a question and answer session. It was 25 a presentation, followed by a question and answer 0046 01 session. That was our format and our agenda for the 02 meeting in my building. 03 Q. Now, when you approached Mr. Johnson that 04 night, did you ask him if he was a school district 05 taxpayer? 06 A. I did not. 07 Q. Did you ask him if he was a middle school 08 parent? 09 A. I did not. 10 Q. Did you ask him to identify who he was? 11 A. I did not. 12 Q. Did you ask for his driver's license? 13 A. I did not. 14 Q. You assumed that he was a parent, because 15 that's what Dr. Wussow had told you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And did he look like a parent to you? 18 A. Well, whatever a parent looks like. I guess 19 so. 20 Q. He didn't look any different than any other 21 parent, did he? 22 A. No, but I do know that he was not one of my 23 parents. I didn't recognize him as being one of my 24 parents. 25 Q. So you did not recognize him, but you didn't 0047 01 ask him for any identification? 02 A. No, but I did not recognize him as being one 03 of my parents. And in the course of running our 04 buildings, we challenge parents in our building, if I'm 05 not sure who they are and ask -- and ask them. 06 Q. But you didn't ask him to say who he was, 07 where he lived, or you didn't ask him to identify if he 08 was a parent or wasn't a parent -- 09 A. No, I didn't -- 10 Q. You didn't -- 11 A. I really didn't have time. We were -- the 12 meeting was fixing to start, and we were on a tight 13 schedule. I mean, we had an hour for a meeting. And 14 I -- my parents have other things to do besides sit in 15 a meeting. So we were trying to get the meeting 16 started in a timely manner and ended in a timely 17 matter. So I didn't really have time to do much of 18 anything other than ask him not to hand out the 19 material. 20 Q. And it wouldn't really have made any 21 difference if it was one of your parents or not one of 22 your parents because the district policy doesn't 23 distinguish that, does it? 24 A. It would have made a difference to me. 25 Q. Well, it says that any person who is not 0048 01 associated with the school, right? 02 A. With the school -- with my school or schools 03 in general? 04 Q. It says the school. I don't know. 05 A. Okay. 06 Q. But if it had been a parent of one of your 07 students or not a parent of one of your students, you 08 still would have told them, you didn't get prior 09 approval; you've got to get prior approval before you 10 can pass it out, because that's the way you understood 11 the policy to be? 12 A. More than likely. 13 Q. That's the way you understood the policy, 14 wasn't it, prior approval was required? 15 A. I understand, but most of my parents in my 16 building understand that policy and they do give 17 material to me in a timely fashion for me to approve. 18 Q. Well, we're going to -- 19 A. My PTA does it. 20 Q. We're going to cover that in a minute. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. My point is, is that that night you did not 23 take the time to identify who Mr. Johnson was, and it 24 wouldn't really have made any difference because 25 anything that had not gotten prior approval could not 0049 01 be distributed, according to your understanding of the 02 policy? 03 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, asked and 04 answered. 05 Q. Is that true? 06 MR. CRAWFORD: Same objection. 07 A. To my knowledge, yes. 08 Q. Okay. Now let's look at the policy. 09 A. Okay. 10 Q. It says, duplicated, written, or printed 11 materials, handbills, photographers, pictures, films, 12 tapes, or other visual or auditory materials shall not 13 be sold, circulated, or distributed by persons or 14 groups not associated with the school on any school 15 premises in the District unless they have received 16 prior -- received permission in accordance with FMA 17 Local, right? 18 A. That's what it says. 19 Q. Now, that sounds pretty close to what you told 20 me you understood the policy to be? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Now, are you familiar with any section of the 23 Plano Independent School District policies that defines 24 the term persons for purposes of this policy? 25 A. I recollect some. I couldn't tell you the 0050 01 policy number or what it is, but I do know with 02 precedent and those things, there could be a policy. 03 But as far as I know, I don't think that there is 04 anything that says what persons are. 05 Q. Okay. 06 A. I mean, you know, it doesn't say, John 07 Smith -- or I have not seen anything like that. Is 08 that what you're asking me because I'm -- 09 Q. Well, the term persons could mean a whole lot 10 of different things to a whole lot of different people. 11 A. Right. 12 Q. Right. 13 A. Sure. 14 Q. And it could be interpreted in a lot of 15 different ways, couldn't it? 16 A. I assume it could be, yes. 17 Q. Persons could mean a teacher, it could mean a 18 school official, it could mean an administrator, it 19 could mean a parent, it could mean somebody who's not a 20 parent, it could mean a corporation who's a person, it 21 could mean a business entity who's a person, it could 22 mean a lot of different things, right? 23 A. Hypothetically, yes, I would agree with you. 24 Q. And the term associated with the school, now, 25 do you know of any definition in the school district 0051 01 policies that defines what it means to be associated 02 with the school? 03 A. Other than what's based on custom and 04 precedent -- PTA, YMCA, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, 05 booster clubs, those organizations I -- like I said, 06 through experience, through precedent and things like 07 that, those are associated with the school. 08 Q. So it's your contention that the YMCA is 09 associated with the Plano Independent School District? 10 A. I would say yes. 11 Q. And the Plano Sports Authority is associated 12 with the Plano Independent School District? 13 A. We work with them, yes, sir. 14 Q. And things like the Classic Theater, they're 15 associated with the Plano Independent School District? 16 A. I would make that assumption, yes. 17 Q. Now, do you know anything in the policies, the 18 written policies of the District that define what 19 persons are and what persons are not associated with 20 the school? 21 A. I can't -- I can't answer that because I'm not 22 for sure, okay. I mean, I can't answer. I'm sorry. 23 There may very well be. 24 (Exhibit No. 68 marked.) 25 Q. Let me hand you Exhibit 68. 0052 01 A. Okay. 02 Q. Exhibit 68 is a Plano Independent School 03 District Student Parent Policy Guide for 1997-1998. 04 A. Okay. 05 Q. Would you look at that and see if you can 06 confirm that that's what that is. 07 A. That's what it appears to be. 08 Q. Now, having been a principal, an assistant 09 principal, and a dean of students, you're familiar with 10 publications like this that the school district prints 11 and publishes and distributes to your students and 12 parents? 13 A. Yes, I am. 14 Q. And the purpose of that is to inform them of 15 the District's policies and practices; is that right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. So that they will know what they can do and 18 what they can't do? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. They'll understand the discipline, they'll 21 understand grading, they'll understand what the 22 students can do, what the parents can do, and what you 23 expect of them? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. That's the purpose of it, isn't it? 0053 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Is there any other purpose of it, or have I 03 covered it? 04 A. Pretty much so. 05 Q. Okay. 06 A. Just scanning through it to see, it talks -- 07 pretty much is informational, yes. 08 Q. Okay. And that's something that is 09 distributed to each family, each school year? 10 A. Yes. I believe it's mailed to them. 11 Q. Okay. It's part of a packet of information 12 that the school district sends to them so that they 13 will be informed of what the school district's policies 14 are as it relates to them and the students? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And would you -- 17 A. That's my understanding. 18 Q. That's your understanding, all right. Would 19 you look at that exhibit, which is your handbook -- 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. -- for students and parents, and tell me if 22 there is any section of that handbook that says to 23 parents that they must get prior approval of fliers or 24 materials that they wish to distribute at a meeting of 25 the parents and teachers. And take a moment to look at 0054 01 it, if you would. 02 MR. CRAWFORD: I object to the question 03 to the extent it mischaracterizes what this exhibit is. 04 A. Do you want to go off the record and me look 05 at it, and then I can -- 06 Q. Just take a moment and look at, and if you 07 find -- 08 A. It's going to take me longer than a moment. 09 Q. That's all right. If you find a section 10 that deals with my question relating to a parents' 11 right to distribute literature to another parent at a 12 meeting in the evening or, you know, during 13 non-curriculum times, I'd ask you just to show that to 14 me, if you would. 15 A. I think I'm halfway through. It's taking 16 me -- I'm reading it, like you asked me to do. 17 (Witness reviews documents.) 18 A. Okay. Could you restate your question again? 19 Q. All right. You've had a chance to review 20 Exhibit No. 68, okay. Is there anything that you saw 21 in 68 that informs a parent that they must get prior 22 approval before they distribute literature to other 23 parents at a parent-teacher meeting? 24 A. In that handbook, I did not see that. I could 25 have missed it, but I thought I read it thoroughly, but 0055 01 I did not see it. 02 Q. Okay. Is there anything in that handbook that 03 you saw that defines persons or entities associated 04 with the school? 05 A. I did. It talks about PTA, PTSOs in there. 06 And I've got to go back to the page, but I did see 07 that. Parent involvement, it talks about PTA, PTO, 08 PTSO, parent organizations. 09 Q. Is there anything that says in there that the 10 PTO, the PTA, parent organizations or other entities 11 like that must get prior approval before they can 12 submit materials? 13 A. It does not say that. 14 Q. Okay. Can I see that? 15 A. You bet. 16 Q. The section that you were referring to is on 17 page 16; is that right? 18 A. Yes, sir. Parent involvement yes, sir. 19 Q. Under the category of the parent involvement? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And it starts off by saying, parent 22 involvement in their children's education is a strong 23 prediction of student's success? 24 A. I would have to agree with that. 25 Q. You agree with that, don't you? 0056 01 A. Sure. 02 Q. Okay. And then it goes on to say there's a 03 variety of ways that the parents can participate. 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. And one of them is to volunteer. And you have 06 volunteer parents at your school? 07 A. Sure. 08 Q. They can become involved in the PTA, PTO, 09 PTSA, PTSO. They can do that. 10 A. Those organizations, yes, sir. 11 Q. Okay. It also says that parents can take -- 12 can provide direct help to their children by taking the 13 time to talk about school and asking to see homework 14 and graded papers; is that correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. So you believe that parents ought to be 17 involved in the school, don't you? 18 A. Parents should be involved, yes. 19 Q. And you believe that they ought to look at 20 what the school is doing and what the school is 21 teaching to their children, don't you? 22 A. Basically they have that right, yes. 23 Q. And you encourage parents to do that, don't 24 you? 25 A. I encourage parent involvement. 0057 01 Q. You encourage parent involvement in looking at 02 books that are being read and curriculum that their 03 students are learning, don't you? 04 A. To have an understanding of curriculum that's 05 being taught, yes. I would like them to understand 06 what is being taught, yes. 07 Q. You'd like to hear from the parents if the 08 parent have some question about the curriculum being 09 taught, wouldn't you? 10 A. Theoretically, yes, probably. 11 Q. If they have an objection about a book that's 12 being assigned and read in English, you'd like to know 13 about that, wouldn't you? 14 A. Sure. 15 Q. And if they have some concern about a 16 particular curriculum, you'd like to know about that, 17 wouldn't you? 18 A. I may or may not. 19 Q. Why wouldn't you? 20 A. Well, it may be that they -- that I might not 21 be able to answer that question for them, and I need to 22 get the proper person that's -- that probably knows 23 more of the curriculum than they're asking than I do. 24 Q. Now, the connected math program, you're aware, 25 are you not, had some controversy surrounding it? 0058 01 A. Yes, I'm aware of that. 02 Q. And you're aware that there were parents who 03 were opposed to the school district adopting that and 04 implementing it through all the schools? 05 A. I'm aware of that. 06 Q. And on the night in question when the parents 07 at your middle school were attending, you, I think -- 08 just to understand where we are -- 09 A. Right. 10 Q. -- in October of 1998, it had not been 11 implemented at your school yet? 12 A. Not yet, that's correct. 13 Q. But it was anticipated that it would be 14 implemented? 15 A. That's a possibility. Of course, the 16 implementation of any curriculum is done by the school 17 board, not me. 18 Q. I understand. But there was -- 19 A. There was that possibility, along with other 20 programs. That was a possibility, yes. 21 Q. In October of 1998, there was an anticipation 22 at your middle school that the next academic year that 23 you would have connected math? 24 A. That was a possibility. 25 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, asked and 0059 01 answered -- 02 Q. And before that could occur, the school board, 03 who are elected officials -- 04 A. Correct. 05 Q. -- would have to pass on whether or not they 06 wanted to do that? 07 A. That's my understanding, yes. 08 Q. And one of the purposes of the meeting was to 09 inform the public, the parents of your students -- of 10 those who wanted to attend the meeting -- about the 11 program and the fact that it might be implemented next 12 year? 13 A. The purpose of our meeting was an 14 informational meeting for my parents, and also a chance 15 for them to ask questions about the program. 16 Q. And you understood at that time that the 17 program would have to go to the elected officials, the 18 Board of Trustees, to be implemented at your school 19 because you weren't part of the pilot program? 20 A. You mean the math program? 21 Q. Yes, I'm talking about -- 22 A. Not -- 23 Q. -- the connected math, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You understood that? 0060 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Okay. Let me ask you to look at Exhibit 49. 03 And then pull 27 out, because I'm going to ask you 04 about 27 and 49. Just set it right here. 05 A. What number? 06 Q. 49 -- just look at, if you would, Exhibit 27 07 and Exhibit 49. Now, Exhibit 27 refers -- Exhibit 27 08 states that -- and I've already read it; I'm not going 09 to reread it -- that you can't circulate or distribute 10 things by persons not associated with the school unless 11 they received permission in accordance with FMA Local, 12 right? 13 A. And it talks about principal's authority, law 14 enforcement, and distribution of publications, yes. 15 Q. And then FMA Local, which is Exhibit 49, at 16 the bottom of the page has a paragraph called prior 17 review. Do you see that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. And under that prior review section of 20 Exhibit 49, which is FMA Local, it states that all 21 written material over which the school does not 22 exercise editorial control that is intended for 23 distribution to students shall be submitted for prior 24 review according to the following procedures. Did I 25 read that correctly? 0061 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Now, this paragraph on prior review concerns 03 distribution of materials and it says, to students. Do 04 you see that? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. Are you familiar with any policy of the 07 District that requires prior review of distribution of 08 materials to parents? 09 A. I can only speak for my buildings and the 10 precedent that was set in my building by me, that 11 materials would come to me through my building. 12 Q. Even if -- 13 A. But -- 14 Q. Even if it dealt with distribution to parents, 15 you still would require prior review? 16 A. My PTA would give me materials, and it went to 17 their members. It was a courtesy that they afforded 18 me. 19 Q. That wasn't my question. 20 A. Well, I don't understand your question then. 21 Q. Yes. Even if the material was going to be 22 distributed to parents and not to students, it was your 23 custom and policy -- practice at your school -- 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. -- to require you to be able to review it 0062 01 before it was distributed to parents? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Okay. And you have been doing that for how 04 many years? Ever since you were a principal? 05 A. And assistant principal in the building. 06 Q. And assistant principal? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Has that been going on, as far as you know, to 09 your understanding in the District, as long as you've 10 been an administrator of the District? 11 A. I can't answer -- in the building that I was 12 working, yes -- in the buildings I have worked in as an 13 administrator that has happened. 14 Q. So even though the policy may talk about 15 distribution to students -- 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. -- it was actually applied if you wanted to 18 distribute something even to parents -- 19 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection. 20 Q. -- prior review was applied? 21 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection to the extent it 22 mischaracterizes the testimony. Go ahead and answer. 23 Q. Is that correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And that's the way that you applied that 0063 01 policy in all the schools you worked at where that was 02 your responsibility? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. And that would include -- let me see if I go 05 back to your record here -- when you were dean of 06 students at Wilson Middle School, did you have 07 responsibility -- 08 A. I did not have responsibility for -- 09 Q. Okay. 10 A. My responsibilities as the dean of students 11 were student activities, not -- of course, I deal with 12 parents. I'm not going to tell you that I didn't, but 13 that was not my responsibility. 14 Q. In 1989 you became assistant principal at 15 Hendrick Middle School? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. So your responsibility would be at that point 18 to review materials that would be distributed to 19 students and to parents? 20 A. Either myself or the building principal. 21 Q. The principal? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. So since 1989 at Hendrick, Plano Senior High 24 School, Wilson Middle School, Hendrick Middle School, 25 all the way up to the time you left, it was your 0064 01 practice to require review even of materials to be 02 distributed to parents? 03 A. At Plano Senior High, again, I only dealt with 04 the students. I did not deal with parents as an 05 assistant principal in that building. 06 Q. But other than that, it was your policy or 07 your practice -- 08 A. Right. 09 Q. -- that any materials distributed to parents 10 had to go through prior review? 11 A. Right. And like I said, that was a courtesy 12 that the parents -- and the reason that it was done is 13 just to see what the material is so we could be in the 14 loop and know what was going on. 15 Q. So the night in question that you stopped 16 Mr. Johnson from distributing these materials at this 17 parent night was consistent with what you had been 18 doing for many years? 19 A. What I had been doing? 20 Q. Yes, sir. 21 A. Yes, either myself or the principal that I had 22 worked with. 23 Q. It was consistent with your understanding of 24 the policies of the District; is that right? 25 A. Yes. 0065 01 Q. And it was consistent with the way you had 02 actually done it for years? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. So if a parent showed up, let's say, at a -- 05 let me give you an example. 06 A. Okay. 07 Q. Let's just use this as an example. Let's say 08 a parent showed up at a dance -- there was a middle 09 school dance. Do you ever have middle school dances at 10 your school? 11 A. I'm afraid we do. 12 Q. Let's say that a parent showed up at a middle 13 school dance -- 14 A. Right. 15 Q. -- and is outside in the circle drive, you 16 know, where the parents are dropping the kids off, and 17 they have a flier objecting to a textbook that your 18 school -- one of your English teachers is using because 19 it has some -- what they consider to be inappropriate 20 themes in it. They would have to get your approval to 21 distribute that flier? 22 A. For the sake of your question or the scenario, 23 yes. 24 Q. Okay. Because that's the way you understood 25 the District's policy, and that's the way you applied 0066 01 it? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Let me ask you to look at Exhibit 63, if you 04 would. This is an e-mail from Jim Davis. Do you know 05 who Jim Davis is? 06 A. I do. 07 Q. Okay. And this is dated Wednesday, August the 08 26th, 1998, 2:48 p.m.; is that right? 09 A. That's what it says. 10 Q. Okay. Who was Mr. Davis in 1998? Do you know 11 who he was? 12 A. He was the area assistant superintendent for 13 the central cluster. 14 Q. Was your school in the central cluster? 15 A. No, I'm in east cluster. My area assistant 16 superintendent was Jeff Bailey. 17 Q. Now, let's look at this for a second. Let's 18 look specifically at the second sentence of the e-mail. 19 It's an instruction to central cluster, all principals. 20 You are not to allow anyone to come on to your campus 21 inside or out to circulate a petition or pass out 22 material related to the connected math program, end of 23 quote. 24 A. That's what it says. 25 Q. Now, that's consistent with your understanding 0067 01 of the policy, too, isn't it? 02 A. No. I mean, I never got anything like this. 03 Q. I didn't ask that question. 04 A. And that's not -- no, that's not consistent 05 with my understanding of the policy. 06 Q. Okay. What -- 07 A. Not to allow anybody to come on to my campus? 08 I've never -- never done that. 09 Q. No, no. Read the whole sentence. You're not 10 to allow anyone to come on to your campus inside or out 11 to circulate a petition or pass out material related to 12 the connected math program. 13 A. That's still not my understanding of the 14 policy. I mean, my understanding -- I don't understand 15 it thataway. 16 Q. Okay. What is different about your 17 understanding of the policy than what Dr. Davis stated 18 in here? 19 A. Well, one, we're not dealing with a petition. 20 I had nobody ask about a petition. I'm a firm believer 21 in the First Amendment. People do have a right to 22 petition. 23 Q. So are you telling me that if Mr. Johnson had 24 been there that night with a petition for parents to 25 sign, that you would have permitted him to do that? 0068 01 A. If given enough time for me to review what he 02 was doing. 03 Q. We still require prior approval then, huh? 04 A. That's right. 05 Q. Okay. So what -- 06 A. And if he wasn't causing -- I would not have a 07 problem with it. I can't say first -- I guess now that 08 didn't happen, so I can assume only what I may or may 09 not have done. 10 Q. But you're saying that if he wanted to have a 11 petition signed by parents, either supporting, 12 opposing, or asking questions about connected math, 13 he'd still have to get your approval to do that? 14 A. I'd have probably asked him to do it at the 15 end of the meeting, and not take up time during the 16 meeting, so we could conduct the meeting and get it 17 over with. We were on a time crunch, and I'd promised 18 those parents we'd be out of there in an hour. 19 Q. But my question is -- 20 A. I understand. 21 Q. My question is, would you have required him to 22 let you see it and get your approval before you -- 23 A. I would have asked him what he was doing and 24 that -- sure. 25 Q. So you would have applied the prior review 0069 01 policy to Mr. Johnson's petition if that had been what 02 he was doing? 03 A. I assume I would. I don't really know that I 04 would or would not have on a petition. That's not -- 05 that's not what -- you know, that's not comparing 06 apples and apples. I mean, to me, it's a different 07 scenario. 08 Q. Why? 09 A. Because a petition is not circulating 10 materials and things like that. A petition is -- to 11 me, what a petition is, is a democratic process. 12 Q. I thought you told me that you didn't know 13 what Mr. Johnson had. 14 A. I did not know. He said materials. 15 Q. Okay. So he could have had a petition -- 16 A. That's very possible. 17 Q. -- anyway? 18 A. You're right. 19 Q. Because you didn't stop to look. 20 A. No, I did not. I didn't have time to look. 21 If I was afforded the time, I would have looked at it. 22 Chances are, I may have granted him the permission to 23 hand out materials. At that point in time, I did not 24 have time. I had to get the thing ready. I had a 25 megaphone that wasn't working. I had to run down and 0070 01 take care of that. 02 Like I said, we had the rest rooms -- I was 03 busy. I didn't have time to stop and look at any 04 materials. 05 Q. So whether he had a petition or he's simply 06 passing out materials, you don't know -- 07 A. I don't know what he had, you're correct. 08 Q. But whatever it was, you told him to stop? 09 A. I did. 10 Q. And if he had not stopped, what would you have 11 done? 12 A. I'd ask him to stop. 13 Q. Again? 14 A. I would assume that common courtesy, that most 15 people would do what people are requested to do. I've 16 had that in the past. People do pretty much -- I mean, 17 most people commonly do what people are asked to do. 18 Q. Well, you're the authority there that night, 19 aren't you? 20 A. I -- it's my building. Yes, I'm in charge. 21 I'm a gatekeeper in that building, yes. 22 Q. Okay. And as the gatekeeper, you're the one 23 responsible for being sure that the district policies 24 are followed, aren't you? 25 A. Yes, that's correct. 0071 01 Q. And so the district policy on prior review of 02 any materials being distributed by a parent to other 03 parents, you're the gatekeeper. You're the person that 04 has to enforce that -- 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. -- on that campus, that night, that location? 07 A. That time in history, yes. 08 Q. And you made that clear to Mr. Johnson, didn't 09 you? 10 A. Yes. I asked him to not distribute materials 11 that he had not received permission. He told me he had 12 not. 13 Q. You asked him. He said, no, I have not? 14 A. That's exactly right. I said, would you 15 please not distribute your materials. 16 Q. And he attempted to hand them to you and 17 you -- 18 A. I said I did not have time to look at them. 19 Q. Now, did you order Mr. Johnson to go across 20 the street to pass out his materials? 21 A. I did not. I said, you may go across the 22 street if you want to, off school premises, and hand 23 out your materials. That is fine. You don't have to 24 have permission for that. 25 Q. But he's got to have permission to distribute 0072 01 them that night on that occasion? 02 A. In that building, yes. 03 Q. And it wouldn't matter if -- and on that 04 particular occasion, it would not have mattered if it 05 was materials previously printed by somebody else or if 06 it was a petition; it wouldn't have mattered? 07 A. Right, because I didn't know what it was. 08 You're correct in that. It could have been anything. 09 It could have been how to make a bomb. I don't know 10 what it was. 11 Q. Now, going back to my e-mail, Exhibit 63. 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. You are not allowed -- you are not to allow 14 anyone to come on to your campus to pass out material 15 related to the connected math program. Is that 16 statement consistent with what you understood policy to 17 be? 18 A. No. 19 Q. What is inconsistent about that? What was 20 inconsistent with your understanding of this statement 21 and what you understand policy to be? 22 A. Well, you're talking about materials related 23 to connected math. I -- I have -- I wouldn't have 24 objected to anything unless I had a chance to look at 25 it. 0073 01 Q. Well, again, you get back to prior approval. 02 A. Right. 03 Q. Okay. So -- 04 A. But it says there -- it says connected math. 05 But that's not my interpretation of the -- I mean, it's 06 any material, is my interpretation, not directed to 07 connected math because I did not see what Mr. Johnson 08 was handing out. 09 Q. Okay. And so if Mr. Johnson was handing out a 10 Texas Education Agency report on the textbook that was 11 being used in the pilot program, which was critical of 12 that textbook, that wouldn't have mattered; he still 13 couldn't do that without getting your permission? 14 A. I didn't know what he was handing out. 15 Q. I'm just asking, it wouldn't matter? 16 A. That's true. 17 Q. He's got to get your permission? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. And under the policy, the FMA Local policy, 20 he's got to submit that to you and let you look at it, 21 and then you've got to bless it before he can pass it 22 out? 23 A. I have to look at it to make sure that it's -- 24 the material is okay, it's not anything that would be 25 disruptive or pornographic or anything like that. I 0074 01 mean, that's what I look at. I don't -- I'm not 02 denying him any other right of that. I just need to 03 know what it is. I mean, that's -- that was courtesy. 04 I wasn't afforded the courtesy at the time, the 05 courtesy to look at the material because the meeting 06 was starting. 07 (Exhibit No. 69 marked.) 08 Q. Let me hand you Exhibit 69. And if you'll 09 look at the last page of Exhibit 69, I believe that's 10 your signature under oath; is that right? 11 A. Yes, it is. 12 Q. This is your affidavit that you signed in this 13 case; is that right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And who prepared this affidavit for you? 16 A. You mean who typed it for me? 17 Q. Yes, sir. 18 A. I would assume that our attorney had typed 19 that for me. I gave a statement to the -- my 20 statement, as it happened, to an attorney. 21 Q. Now, go back to paragraph 5 of the affidavit. 22 And the date apparently of this meeting was October the 23 12th, 1998, according to your affidavit? 24 A. Yes, that's... 25 Q. All right. And it was at Hendrick Middle 0075 01 School? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Now, go to paragraph 7. And you state that 04 prior to the beginning of the parents meeting -- 05 A. Right. 06 Q. -- Jim Wussow told you there was an individual 07 distributing material to the attendees of the meeting? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Now, the only attendees of the meeting were 10 school officials and parents. There weren't any kids 11 there, were there? 12 A. There were some children there. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. I mean, parents had brought their little 15 children, yes. There were some other students. I 16 don't -- there were small children. There were middle 17 school kids there. Now, the meeting was for parents, 18 but they had their -- they had their children with 19 them. 20 Q. But you understood that the material was being 21 distributed to the parents that were attending the 22 meeting? That was your understanding, wasn't it? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. You approached Mr. Johnson, you stated, 25 and asked him if he had received permission from the 0076 01 District -- that meaning the school district -- 02 A. Right. 03 Q. -- to distribute his material? 04 A. Correct. 05 Q. Now, he could have, according to the policies 06 you've been talking about here -- you, as the 07 principal, could have granted him permission or the 08 district administrators could have granted him 09 permission? 10 A. True. 11 Q. And he said that I had -- you said, I had no 12 knowledge of any materials being approved for 13 distribution. Okay. So you didn't know anything about 14 that prior to the time? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. All right. Now, he -- according to your 17 affidavit, what Mr. Johnson told you was that he was 18 distributing a report from the Texas Education Agency. 19 A. That's what he said. 20 Q. Okay. But you didn't take time to look at it 21 to see if that's what it was? 22 A. I didn't have time. I was -- I mean, I was 23 trying to get the meeting going and trying to get 24 things set up. I didn't have time to look at it at 25 that point in time. 0077 01 Q. You then informed him that he had to cease or 02 stop distributing the materials because he hadn't 03 gotten prior permission? 04 A. I asked him to quit distributing the 05 materials. 06 Q. And told him that he could go off school 07 property? 08 A. He could hand them out off school property, 09 yes. 10 Q. Now, in paragraph 12, you make the statement 11 in your affidavit that during Dr. Wohlgehagen's 12 presentation, Mr. Johnson heckled Dr. Wohlgehagen; is 13 that correct? 14 A. That was my observation. That was my 15 observation, yes. 16 Q. Was it your observation that it was 17 Mr. Johnson interfering with Dr. Wohlgehagen or someone 18 else? 19 A. It was the gentleman that was trying to hand 20 out the material -- to me. I did not know it was 21 Mr. Johnson at that time. I didn't know who he was. 22 It was the gentleman that was trying to hand out that 23 material. 24 Q. Now, let's go back to that sentence, 25 because you say, during the presentation -- now, 0078 01 Dr. Wohlgehagen made an opening statement basically to 02 the parents. He made a statement to the parents -- a 03 presentation to the parents? 04 A. Yes, he did. 05 Q. Then there was a question and answer session? 06 A. Yes, there was. 07 Q. Now, those are two different events. One is a 08 presentation where he's talking. He's communicating 09 information. And the other -- 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. -- is a give and take question and answer 12 session? 13 A. He asked questions, that's correct. 14 Q. All right. When do you contend that someone 15 interfered with or heckled Dr. Wohlgehagen? 16 A. Okay. During Dr. Wohlgehagen's presentation. 17 During his opening presentation of the program. 18 Q. So it's your contention that Mr. Johnson 19 interfered with Dr. Wohlgehagen's opening remarks or 20 statements to the -- before he got into questions and 21 answers; is that right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you knew that was a violation of district 24 policy, didn't you? 25 A. What? 0079 01 Q. For a parent to interfere with a school 02 official's speech to parents. He couldn't do that. 03 You knew that. 04 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection. 05 A. I didn't know of any policy against that. 06 Q. Well, you knew that -- 07 A. Common courtesy says that you let people 08 speak. And there is some decorum that goes on. 09 Q. You were the school official at that 10 particular school who was the master-at-arms in charge 11 of authority and discipline at that school that night, 12 weren't you? 13 A. I wasn't the master-at-arms. I was the 14 principal of that building. 15 Q. And you were responsible for enforcing school 16 district policy? 17 A. There's no policy that says that a parent has 18 to not behave themselves and -- if it becomes unruly. 19 Q. Well -- 20 A. It wasn't at the point -- I did not deem it as 21 being that unruly that -- that he had to be asked to 22 leave because he did not -- in fact, if I remember 23 correctly, he asked some questions, I believe. 24 Q. Well, you knew that when someone is making a 25 presentation of school information at a meeting, that 0080 01 if someone else is disrupting that meeting, that 02 violates school policy, doesn't it? You knew that? 03 A. No, I didn't know that. 04 Q. You don't -- 05 A. That's -- common courtesy and decorum and 06 respect for somebody making a presentation does 07 dictate. I mean, that's -- a written policy, I mean -- 08 you just use common sense on things like that, and 09 that's basically what you use. 10 Q. Well, look at -- 11 A. And that's what it was. 12 Q. Look at Exhibit 48. Let's just go to 13 Exhibit 48. Keep that affidavit out there and let's go 14 to Exhibit 48. 15 Now, this is a policy of the school district 16 called GKA Legal. Under disruption of lawful assembly 17 it states, no person or group of persons acting in 18 concert may intentionally engage in disruptive activity 19 or disrupt a lawful assembly on the campuses or 20 property of any school in the District, period. 21 A. Right. 22 Q. Now, was Mr. Johnson doing that, that night? 23 MR. CRAWFORD: I'm going to object to 24 form. That's a misleading question. 25 A. Mr. Johnson was speaking and talking with 0081 01 groups of people around him, not using good manners. 02 Q. I am asking, was he doing what this policy 03 says you can't do that night? 04 A. In my judgment? 05 Q. Yes, sir. 06 A. He was not. It's just a pass interference 07 call. I didn't think it was at that point that he was 08 that disruptive. He was -- he was disruptive and 09 heckling, yes, because a group of people that were 10 sitting around him got up and moved. And that's what 11 I -- I did not hear a thing he said. I was going by 12 body language of people that were sitting there, 13 turning around, looking at him, and then sitting 14 forward, and then getting up and moving. 15 Q. Now, you stated in your affidavit that -- in 16 paragraph 12, that the conduct was, quote, greatly 17 disruptive. That's what you stated in your affidavit. 18 A. It was to the people sitting around him, 19 correct. 20 Q. And you just told me that you didn't even hear 21 what Mr. Johnson allegedly said. 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. So how do you know that he was -- you used 24 heckle. How do you know he was heckling anybody if you 25 didn't hear him? 0082 01 A. I made that assumption based on the fact that 02 several people -- 03 Q. Oh. 04 A. -- got up and moved away from him. 05 Q. It's an assumption that he heckled somebody. 06 You didn't hear him heckle anybody? 07 A. I didn't hear him till he asked questions. 08 Q. But you didn't hear him heckle anybody? 09 A. No, I did not hear him heckle anybody. 10 Q. But your affidavit says that he did. Now, how 11 did you know that if you didn't hear him? 12 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, asked and 13 answered. 14 A. That was my observation. 15 Q. All you observed were some people that got up 16 and moved. They could have -- 17 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, argumentative. 18 Q. -- got up to go the bathroom. You didn't 19 know. 20 A. They did. They got up and moved to other 21 seats. I saw them do that. 22 Q. If Mr. Johnson's activities had been 23 disruptive that night of Dr. Wohlgehagen's 24 presentation, you had ample reason and ample policy to 25 go to him and say, stop what you're doing, didn't you? 0083 01 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection to the extent it 02 misrepresents what the policies are. 03 A. If it was to the point that it was real 04 disruptive, yes, I probably would have. 05 Q. And you could have -- 06 A. I could have. 07 Q. -- with the policy? 08 A. Under the policy I could have. 09 Q. But you did not? 10 A. I did not. 11 Q. You did not go to Mr. Johnson that night and 12 say, Mr. Johnson, you're heckling -- 13 A. Please be quiet. 14 Q. -- Dr. Wohlgehagen. 15 A. I did not. 16 Q. You didn't tell him to sit down. You didn't 17 tell him to be quiet. 18 A. I did not. 19 Q. Because his activities weren't that 20 disruptive? 21 A. It was disruptive to the people sitting around 22 him. 23 Q. But you stated in your affidavit that they 24 were greatly disruptive -- that what Mr. Johnson did 25 was greatly disruptive. 0084 01 A. When people get up and move, I consider that 02 as being disruptive. 03 Q. But you took no action to try to tell him to 04 be quiet, sit down or move around or stop doing what 05 he's doing, did you? 06 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, asked and 07 answered. 08 A. No, I did not -- although I do state in 09 No. 13 there that I did have some parents that -- the 10 ones that were sitting around him come up and were 11 disturbed by the nature of -- from the -- resulting 12 from their inability to ask questions. 13 MR. BUNDREN: Objection, nonresponsive. 14 Q. Would it surprise you if Dr. Wohlgehagen 15 stated under oath that Mr. Johnson did not interfere or 16 heckle him when he tried to make his presentation? 17 A. I have no idea what Dr. Wohlgehagen would or 18 would not have said. 19 Q. Would it surprise you if he said that 20 Mr. Johnson didn't do that? 21 MR. CRAWFORD: Object to the extent that 22 mischaracterizes what Dr. Wohlgehagen said. 23 A. It don't -- it wouldn't surprise me, no. I 24 mean, I don't know what he'd say. I haven't talked to 25 him. 0085 01 MR. BUNDREN: Let's take a short break. 02 (Recess from 3:18 to 3:32 p.m.) 03 Q. Let me ask you to look at Exhibit 1. This is 04 a regulation called FMA Regulation, Student Activities, 05 Publications and Prior Review. 06 The first paragraph states, distribution of 07 materials in district schools or offices is not 08 allowed. 09 A. I see that. 10 Q. Now, the night that you stopped Mr. Johnson 11 from making his distribution, it was because of FMA 12 Regulation, the one I'm showing you here, or the prior 13 one, Exhibit 27 that I showed you? Do you need to look 14 at 27? 15 A. State your question again. 16 Q. The reason I'm asking these questions is, is 17 that you understand that the Board of Trustees of the 18 school district adopts policy? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. The school officials, of which you are one, 21 have a responsibility to enforce school district 22 policy? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. That's been ingrained in your mind -- 25 A. Yes. 0086 01 Q. -- since you became a teacher? 02 A. That's true. Okay. 03 Q. That you, as a school principal and as a 04 public school official, are not supposed to make 05 policy; you're -- 06 A. No. 07 Q. -- supposed to enforce policy? 08 A. That is correct. 09 Q. Am I correct on that? 10 A. Policy-making is the school board, that's 11 correct. 12 Q. I've looked at a lot of these policies that 13 the school board trustees have adopted. Quite frankly, 14 I'm a little confused, but you know more about these 15 policies than I do. And I'm trying to find out what 16 policy you were enforcing against Mr. Johnson that 17 night that we've been talking about on October the 18 12th, 1998 -- 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. -- so that we can identify the policy and look 21 at it and have the Court look at it. 22 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection. 23 Q. That's one of the subject matters of this 24 lawsuit. 25 MR. CRAWFORD: Object to the sidebar 0087 01 comment. 02 Q. So that's the reason I'm asking these 03 questions. Now, on the night in question, when you 04 told Mr. Johnson he couldn't distribute the Texas 05 Education Agency materials at the parents night, were 06 you relying upon GKA Local, which is Exhibit 27, or 07 were you relying upon FMA Regulation, which is 08 Exhibit 1? 09 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection to the extent 10 the question is misleading. 11 A. What I was -- the policy I was working -- 12 whichever one said -- and I'll go back and read it 13 again -- that it needs to have prior approval before 14 handing out material. 15 Now, do they both say that? I don't know. 16 I'll have to go back and read them again. I mean, 17 that's just a general -- and I don't know all the -- I 18 mean, I know how to research the policy. I'll go back 19 and look and see. But asking me right now, I couldn't 20 tell you if they both say -- because of the need for 21 prior approval, that's the one I was operating under. 22 Q. Okay. Now, under GKA Local, which is 23 Exhibit 27 -- 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. -- prior approval is not required if it's a 0088 01 person or an entity -- and I think it says -- 02 associated with the school. 03 A. It says -- let me read it. 04 Q. Read it again. 05 A. That's what I'm doing. Okay. That's what it 06 says. 07 Q. Is that what it says? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. So if it's a person that's associated with the 10 school, prior approval doesn't apply. So they can 11 distribute materials without getting prior approval, 12 right? 13 A. Yes, according to the policy. 14 Q. According to the policy. 15 A. Right. 16 Q. But you assumed that night that Mr. Johnson 17 was not associated with the school -- or did you even 18 know that that was an exception for prior approval? 19 A. The first part of your question, I didn't know 20 that he was associated with the school because I didn't 21 know who he was. 22 Q. And you didn't ask? 23 A. And I didn't ask. And the second part of your 24 question was -- 25 Q. Let me reask it. 0089 01 A. Okay. I'm sorry. 02 Q. All right. So you didn't know who he was -- 03 A. Right. 04 Q. -- and you didn't know what he was doing 05 there? 06 A. Right. 07 Q. And you didn't know if he was associated with 08 the school or not? 09 A. Correct. 10 Q. In fact, he could have been an employee at the 11 school administration offices and you just didn't know 12 it? 13 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, assumes facts 14 not in evidence. Improper hypothetical. 15 Q. Couldn't it? 16 A. Most of the people in -- I've been in the 17 district long enough, I know most of the people there. 18 Q. Okay. But he could have been somebody that 19 had just got recently hired and you didn't know it? 20 MR. CRAWFORD: Same objection. 21 A. And he could have been a convict off the 22 street too. 23 Q. Didn't know it? 24 A. Didn't know it. 25 Q. Because you didn't ask. 0090 01 A. He didn't have a striped suit on. 02 Q. Yeah. You didn't ask who he was? 03 A. Didn't ask. 04 Q. You didn't ask for ID; didn't ask him who he 05 was? 06 A. No, I did not. I didn't ask anybody in that 07 room for ID. 08 Q. All right. Was anybody else distributing 09 literature besides Mr. Johnson? 10 A. I'm trying to think. I don't remember any 11 parent distributing any literature. 12 Q. Okay. So you didn't see anybody else 13 distributing literature that night? 14 A. I did not. I didn't see Mr. Johnson until it 15 was called to my attention. I was trying to get things 16 ready for the thing. I was busy. 17 Q. I understand. 18 A. I didn't have time to look up. 19 Q. So if Mr. Johnson was associated with the 20 school, then under the policy, would he have to get 21 prior approval? 22 A. He was associated with the school? 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. Under your scenario that you're giving me, no. 25 Q. Okay. Under the policy? 0091 01 A. By stated in the policy, yes. 02 Q. GKA Local, if he was associated with the 03 school, then he wouldn't have had to get prior 04 approval, right? 05 A. Correct, by policy. 06 Q. But you don't know of any -- let me ask you 07 this. Have you received any training from the Plano 08 Independent School District about who is and who is not 09 associated with the school for purposes of enforcing 10 these policies? 11 A. Speak to me on training, I -- you mean formal 12 training? 13 Q. Well, you receive lots of training -- 14 A. We get a lot -- 15 Q. -- don't you? 16 A. -- of training. We do a lot -- 17 Q. A lot of training. 18 A. -- of things for curriculum, right. 19 Q. Lots of training if you're a public -- 20 A. Right. 21 Q. -- school official? 22 A. Right. We -- we do go over policy somewhat. 23 And the main policy is, is legal policy. I mean, 24 employee relationships, those kind of things. 25 Q. So you -- as a public school official, you 0092 01 received a lot of training? 02 A. Sure. 03 Q. And you've received a lot of legal training, 04 haven't you? 05 A. Well, I've sat in a law class or two, yes, but 06 I don't know that it's -- 07 Q. I didn't say you were a lawyer. 08 A. Yeah, okay. 09 Q. I just said you've received a lot of legal 10 training. 11 A. Thanks for not calling me a lawyer. 12 Q. I understand. 13 A. Okay. But I have -- yes, I've had training, 14 yes. 15 Q. Do you recall the Plano Independent School 16 District ever giving you, as a public school principal 17 or assistant principal in the administrator's position, 18 training on who can and cannot distribute materials on 19 the school campuses without prior approval? 20 A. To my knowledge, no. I don't recall that. 21 Q. So the only thing you were left with was just 22 a -- this policy; that's it? 23 A. Right, interpretation -- my interpretation of 24 the policies. 25 Q. And you didn't have any other guidelines or 0093 01 training or instruction from the school district about 02 how to interpret the terms in that policy; is that 03 correct? 04 A. No. I mean -- 05 Q. Am I correct? 06 A. Yeah, you're correct. 07 Q. Okay. So when it comes to making a decision 08 about who is and who is not associated with the school, 09 you're kind of left out there with no guidance? 10 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection to form. 11 Misstates testimony. 12 A. Well, I use precedent and experience for that. 13 Q. Okay. And your precedent and your experience 14 was -- for ten-plus years was that parents weren't 15 associated with the school, so they had to get prior 16 approval? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now look at Exhibit 1. 19 A. Okay. Got you. 20 Q. After the general statement on distribution of 21 materials in the schools not being allowed, there's a 22 bunch of exceptions. Do you see that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. So literature regarding children's programs 25 for nonprofit youth related organizations located in or 0094 01 functioning in the district may be disseminated in a 02 matter delineated by the communications office. Then 03 they give examples: Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, PSA -- 04 that's Plano Sports Authority. 05 A. Yes, uh-huh. 06 Q. And then PYSA is -- 07 A. I think it's soccer. 08 Q. Soccer, okay. 09 A. Yeah. 10 Q. YMCA, YMCA Indian Guides, The Classics, and 11 Special Olympics. 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. So those organizations are permitted to 14 distribute materials in a manner delineated by the 15 communications office without getting your approval, 16 correct? 17 A. In my building, I still look at those and 18 decide whether those are distributed or not. 19 Q. Okay. Have you ever told the PSA or YMCA or 20 Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts, The Classics, or Special 21 Olympics that they couldn't distribute something? 22 A. I'm trying to think. I did tell one of the 23 organizations -- I don't remember which one it was -- 24 but I did say I would rather you not distribute your 25 literature at this time. 0095 01 Q. It's typical in a school year as a principal 02 that this literature from these organizations outside 03 of the school -- 04 A. Uh-huh. 05 Q. -- that are related to youth soccer, youth 06 sporting events -- 07 A. Uh-huh. 08 Q. -- and Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts that they 09 come to you from the communications office -- 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. -- and then you distribute them out to the -- 12 one of the last periods of the day? 13 A. If I so chose to do so. 14 Q. And in most cases, you choose to do so? 15 A. Normally I do, yes, sir. 16 Q. And then those get put into the kids' 17 backpacks and they get taken home? 18 A. No. And the reason they don't in my building 19 is because they're all over the ground. We post -- I 20 post them in the P.E. department. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. For soccer or for athletic things, or we post 23 them on a kiosk there in the -- in the building. 24 Q. Do you ever allow the children to take 25 anything home with them about PSA or Boy Scouts or Girl 0096 01 Scouts or Indian Guides? 02 A. Actually they have the material posted, and 03 they also can pick it up at certain locations in the 04 building. Yes, they could do that. 05 Q. Okay. So you have it distributed out within 06 the building for people to pick up -- students to pick 07 up or for -- 08 A. If it's -- 09 Q. -- parents to pick up? 10 A. If it's -- usually it's in the office in a 11 folder. They can come by and pick it up if they chose 12 to do so, yes. 13 Q. Now, another exception to the prohibition on 14 distribution of materials is school night for scouting 15 fliers may be distributed in the fall, okay? 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. Then move on down. Nonprofit organizations 18 may be allowed to distribute materials or display 19 posters if the event or activity is of an educational 20 nature and will benefit students. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. Examples: Dallas Symphony Orchestra, Dallas 23 Arboretum, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You've done that before, haven't you? 0097 01 A. Again, the procedure I used in my building was 02 to post those and have those at an area. With those 03 middle school kids, traditionally, they're all over -- 04 I mean, they -- it doesn't get home with middle school 05 kids. And I've worked in middle school for a few 06 years. They get -- it's all over the ground, so we 07 post it and then we have a place that they may come by 08 and pick it up if they so choose to do so. 09 Q. Now, with respect to the way in which this is 10 done -- if you move on down -- it says that the 11 organizations -- that last sentence there -- 12 A. Got you. 13 Q. -- will be responsible for dividing the 14 material into packets and delivering the packets to the 15 school buildings for students in each grade level? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Is that what they do? 18 A. That's what they do. 19 Q. Okay. And then it goes on to talk about 20 posters and essays. These are, again, exceptions -- 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. -- of this nondistribution -- 23 A. Right. 24 Q. Let's see here. All right. So you have done 25 this before, what this thing talks about, right? 0098 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Okay. 03 A. I mean, to some degree. I don't -- I don't 04 hand them out to every kid in the building. I did not 05 do that in my building. And it's a selfish reason 06 because I don't like picking the things up all over the 07 ground. 08 Q. But you make them available to -- 09 A. I make -- 10 Q. -- the students? 11 A. -- them available to the students. And we 12 post them where they can see them, yes. 13 Q. And they're available to the parents if the 14 parents want -- 15 A. If the parents wish to pick them up, yes. 16 Q. Okay. And that availability is on the school 17 campus in the school building? 18 A. It's in the -- usually it's in the office, 19 yes. 20 Q. Okay. Let's look at a couple of other things 21 here. Look at Exhibit 28, if you would. 22 A. 28-A? 23 Q. 28. 24 A. Okay. Right here. Okay. 25 Q. 28 is an example of a petition for the 0099 01 addition of a specific academic 6th grade math class at 02 Armstrong Middle School. Have you ever seen a petition 03 like this before? 04 A. No, I have not. 05 Q. Now, if Mr. Johnson had had a petition like 06 this with him that night, but instead of saying 07 Armstrong Middle School it said Hendrick Middle School, 08 it wouldn't have made any difference because you didn't 09 look at what he had anyway, right? 10 A. I didn't have time to look at what he had. 11 Q. So he would have been told that he couldn't 12 pass that out? 13 A. Right, because I didn't have time at that -- 14 at that point in time to look at any material that he 15 had. 16 Q. So you would have said, no, don't pass that 17 out either? 18 A. I didn't -- yeah, because I didn't have time 19 to review anything that he had. 20 Q. Look at -- 21 A. I didn't know what it was. 22 Q. Look at 28-A. 23 A. Right there. Good. 24 Q. This is a type of a flier for the Meadows PTO. 25 A. Uh-huh. 0100 01 Q. Is this the type of information that you would 02 make available to students and parents at your school 03 if it related to your school? 04 A. Possibly -- could be. Again, with middle 05 school kids, you very seldom -- I very seldom have 06 found you send things home with them. It doesn't get 07 there. We make it available, yes, sir. 08 Q. Okay. 09 A. And we try to do it through announcement and 10 whatnot. 11 Q. Look at 29. 12 A. The next one. 13 Q. American Youth Soccer Organization. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. You've heard of them before, haven't you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. And this is the type of information 18 that you would make available to the students and 19 parents at your school? 20 A. Yes. We post that and put it in a certain 21 area. 22 Q. Okay. So this is actually posted on a 23 bulletin board somewhere? 24 A. In the P.E. locker room area, yeah, for the -- 25 for those kiddos. 0101 01 Q. And if a parent or student wanted to get one 02 of these to take home, they could come by the office 03 and get one? 04 A. Come by the office or even pick one up from 05 the coach's office. 06 Q. Okay. 07 A. We try to have it convenient for them, yes. 08 Q. Okay. Next is Exhibit 30. That's Girl Scout 09 Recruitment Night. According to the policies of the 10 District as you understand them, this too is the type 11 of flier that could be posted at the school -- 12 A. Sure. 13 Q. -- and made available to the students and 14 parents? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. 31 is the Plano Baseball Association 17 and Plano Girls Softball Association. And this is the 18 type of a flier that you would post on your bulletin 19 boards -- 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. -- and make available for the students or 22 parents if they wanted them? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And on the back of that, there's a 25 registration where you sign up for this -- 0102 01 A. Uh-huh. 02 Q. -- right? 03 A. That's what it looks like. 04 Q. You've seen this type of stuff before, haven't 05 you? 06 A. Yes, or something similar. 07 Q. Exhibit 32 is the Plano Sports Authority 1999 08 fall sports registration. This is, again, a similar 09 type of flier that you would post -- 10 A. Right. 11 Q. -- or make available? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And it would be distributed to students or 14 parents who wanted them? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Exhibit 33 is the Indian Guides, Indian 17 Princess program with the YMCA. And this, again, is 18 the type of something you would post on your bulletin 19 board and make available to parents or students if they 20 wanted it? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Now, do you consider the Indian Guides and 23 Indian Princess and the Plano Sports Authority, these 24 type of organizations to be associated with the school? 25 A. Yes, I do, by tradition and -- 0103 01 Q. By tradition? 02 A. By tradition and precedent, yes. 03 Q. Okay. So because the YMCA and the Boy Scouts, 04 Girl Scouts, PSA, these type organizations are 05 associated with the school, then they can distribute 06 materials without having to go through your permission 07 and approval process? 08 A. But in my building, again, I look at those to 09 decide whether they can or not. 10 Q. Yes. I mean, you exercise a right to -- 11 A. Sure. 12 Q. -- a right. You have just took upon 13 yourself -- 14 A. Right. 15 Q. -- the exercise of a right to say no? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. But by policy, they can get these distributed? 18 A. Yes, by policy. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Let's look at the first annual punt, pass, and 22 kick contest sponsored by the Plano East Quarterback 23 Club, which is Exhibit 34. 24 This is the type of flier that you would post 25 and would be made available to students and parents if 0104 01 they want them? 02 A. Yes, it is. That's a booster club 03 organization, Plano East. 04 Q. Plano East Quarterback Club? 05 A. Uh-huh. 06 Q. Okay. 07 A. That's a booster organization. 08 Q. So they could do that, again, without getting 09 prior approval, although you would look at it -- 10 A. By policy, yes. 11 Q. By policy without prior approval, okay. The 12 next one is the Little Caesars Pizza Kits program. 13 This is Armstrong Middle School, looks like somebody 14 wrote over there. But you've had -- have you these 15 types of -- 16 A. I'm not -- 17 Q. -- benefit programs? 18 A. -- familiar with it. 19 Q. Never seen this before? 20 A. No, I have not. 21 Q. Okay. Let's look at Exhibit 36. This is the 22 Markel Insurance Company, American youth student and 23 sports insurance. Have you ever seen information about 24 insurance coverage for some of your student athletes 25 before? 0105 01 A. I personally have not. My athletic director 02 may have, but I personally have not. 03 Q. All right. So you've never had one of these 04 that you know of? 05 A. Never have. 06 Q. Now, Exhibit 37 is the weekly publication of 07 the Bethany PTA. Now, did you have weekly or monthly 08 or periodic publications -- 09 A. Ours are periodic -- they were quarterly in 10 my building. Ours were quarterly. And the PTA would 11 submit that to my assistant principal, who would put 12 the newsletter together. 13 Q. For the PTA? 14 A. For the PTA and for the building, yes. 15 Q. Now, the first thing I see on here, just as an 16 example, is an announcement of a coffee for 17 kindergarten and 2nd and 1st grade parents. 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. That's the type of thing that you would put in 20 this distribution flier, right? 21 A. It's not successful to middle school. I 22 wouldn't put it in there, but they would at Bethany, 23 obviously, yes. 24 Q. But by policy -- by policy, that's permitted? 25 A. But policy, yes. 0106 01 Q. Okay. And it says that they're going to be 02 treated to a short presentation about issues -- issues 03 pertaining to their little ones, time for fellowship 04 will follow, younger siblings are welcome to this 05 informal event. That's the type of communication that 06 these fliers would permit? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. By policy? 09 A. By policy. 10 Q. There's also an announcement here of a dad's 11 club meeting, right? 12 A. Yeah, I see that. 13 Q. There's an announcement of a 4th and 5th grade 14 coffee? 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. Okay. Again, a time for fellowship and 17 meeting with new people will follow, okay. These are 18 the type of communications that your newsletters would 19 include that would go out to the parents and teachers? 20 A. Sure. Ours also include a calendar of events. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. Athletic -- in other words, volleyball teams 23 play so and so at -- you know, it gives their schedule. 24 Those kind of things are in there also. And the 25 different departments also put in -- like the math 0107 01 department. The English department would put in, we're 02 working on whatever. 03 Q. So -- 04 A. Those things, yes. But that's -- yeah, you're 05 right. 06 Q. These are typical type communications? 07 A. Typical, yes, a newsletter. That's a typical 08 newsletter. 09 Q. And by policy, these could be distributed 10 without prior approval? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Now, let's look at Exhibit 38. This is a 13 PTO-PTA fund-raiser, Plano Star Courier, okay. This 14 is the type of flier that could go out without prior 15 approval, right? 16 A. By policy, it could, yeah. 17 Q. Okay. Paperboard Recycling is 39. This says, 18 Paperboard Recycling returns. Have you seen this type 19 of information going out on -- 20 A. Things similar to that, yes. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. This particular one, no, I have not seen. 23 Q. But something similar to this? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And this would be something that the school 0108 01 could distribute to the students or the parents who 02 wanted it -- 03 A. If -- 04 Q. -- without prior approval? 05 A. If they chose so, yes. 06 Q. Okay. Let's look at 42. This is an 07 announcement of a Bethany family swim night. And 08 there's something about the school and Bethany and so 09 forth. I guess that builds spirit at the school. 10 A. I assume. 11 Q. Is this the type of flier that could be 12 distributed without prior approval? 13 A. It could be. 14 Q. By policy? 15 A. By policy. I wouldn't do it, but it could be. 16 Q. All right. By policy? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. This is -- the next one, 43, is a fire 19 prevention poster contest. Now, is this the type of 20 thing that could be distributed by policy? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Without prior approval? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. 44 is The Classics, theater, fall art. 25 This is -- let's see, I'm looking for -- oh, The 0109 01 Classics Studio. And is this the type of thing that 02 could be distributed without prior approval by policy? 03 A. By policy, yes. 04 Q. Okay. The next is a copy of a flier on Plano 05 Independent School District at Six Flags, Exhibit 45. 06 Is this the type of thing that could be distributed 07 without prior approval? 08 A. Could be. 09 Q. By policy? 10 A. By policy. 11 Q. Okay. Now, let's look back at Exhibit 63 for 12 a moment. 13 A. 63, okay. 14 Q. This is the Jim Davis e-mail I was asking 15 about earlier. I think you told me earlier that you 16 did not receive this e-mail because you weren't part of 17 the central cluster? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. What cluster were you part of? 20 A. I'm the east cluster. 21 Q. And who was your superior? 22 A. Jeff Bailey. 23 Q. Jeff Bailey. Did you receive e-mails from 24 Mr. Bailey from time to time about things happening in 25 the school? 0110 01 A. Happening in the school? 02 Q. Yes. Did Mr. Bailey communicate with you by 03 e-mail? 04 A. Jeff very seldom used e-mail. Usually he 05 would call me on the phone about concerns, but he never 06 sent me -- he didn't send me many e-mails. 07 Q. Did you receive any communications from anyone 08 in the administration prior to the parents night that 09 we've been talking about on October the 12th concerning 10 the connected math program or concerning parent 11 opposition, that there might be some parent opposition? 12 A. To my knowledge, I did not. 13 Q. Mr. Wussow, you said, was there that night? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And he was the one that alerted you to 16 Mr. Johnson passing out the materials? 17 A. Yes. He told me there was a gentleman handing 18 out materials. 19 Q. And what is Mr. Wussow's position? 20 A. He's the -- let me think of his title. He's 21 the director of secondary curriculum. 22 Q. Okay. Now, why would Mr. Wussow come to you 23 and tell you that Mr. Johnson -- or that a parent was 24 passing out materials? 25 A. Because Hendrick is my -- I'm the principal of 0111 01 Hendrick Middle School. 02 Q. That's your responsibility? 03 A. That's my responsibility. 04 Q. That's your watch? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. Is that right? 07 A. That's correct. 08 Q. And so he expected you to take action to stop 09 it? 10 A. I don't know what he expected to do. 11 Q. Well, you understood that he was telling you 12 for a reason? 13 A. He said, there's a person handing out -- and 14 he didn't -- he's not my supervisor. I don't think he 15 can tell me to do anything. He just said, there's a 16 person handing out material. 17 Q. Well, you didn't want to get caught napping on 18 your watch, did you? 19 A. I really -- it wasn't that. I didn't have 20 time to do a whole lot of anything, to be honest with 21 you. I was trying to get the program going. And so he 22 did tell me that. And I went -- I observed the 23 gentleman handing out material and went down and asked 24 him not to do that. 25 Q. Did Mr. Wussow, when he told you there was 0112 01 someone handing out material, imply to you that you 02 should do something about it? 03 A. I honestly can't say. He just said, there's 04 somebody down there handing out material. That's all 05 he said to me. 06 Q. And then did you immediately go down there and 07 check it out? 08 A. Immediately? I -- I went down there. I don't 09 know how immediate it was. I went down. I was 10 plugging something up and went down there and then -- 11 because the program was in the process of beginning. 12 Q. When you were going down there -- I mean, from 13 the time Mr. Wussow told you that someone was passing 14 out materials until the time that you got down in front 15 of Mr. Johnson and began to question Mr. Johnson, did 16 you have thoughts running through your mind that this 17 needs to have approval? 18 A. No. 19 Q. That there's got to be approval? 20 A. No, that didn't -- I can't really say. I 21 really don't know what my thoughts were at the time 22 other than, like, get the program started, like, get it 23 on time, get it over with. 24 Q. When did you make the decision to tell 25 Mr. Johnson that he needed to stop doing what he was 0113 01 doing? 02 A. When I confronted him. 03 Q. And when he told you he had not gotten prior 04 approval? 05 A. When he hadn't gotten prior approval? He told 06 me that. Yes, he said that he did not get permission. 07 Q. Well, the first thing you asked him was is -- 08 A. Did you have permission, right. 09 Q. That's the first thing you asked him? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. So you walked up to him. The first thing -- 12 A. Do you have permission -- 13 Q. -- you asked him was, do you have 14 permission -- 15 A. -- to hand out material, yes, I did. 16 Q. And he said no? 17 A. He said no. 18 Q. Now, at that point, did you make the decision 19 that you were going to instruct him to stop doing what 20 he was doing? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Because he didn't have permission? 23 A. Yes. He already told me he didn't. 24 Q. Okay. 25 (Exhibit No. 70 marked.) 0114 01 Q. Just so I've covered all the bases -- 02 A. Right. 03 Q. -- this is the 1999-2000 Parent Student 04 Handbook that went out for the parents and students. 05 I'd asked you previously about another one. 06 A. Right. 07 Q. Would you look through that handbook and tell 08 me if you see anything in there that gives notice to 09 parents that they have got to get prior approval before 10 they can distribute materials. 11 A. Okay. 12 MR. CRAWFORD: Object to the question to 13 the extent it misstates what this exhibit is. 14 (Witness reviews document.) 15 A. Again, I do not see anything that 16 specifically refers to that. 17 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you to look at 18 Exhibit 47. Under the paragraph disruptive 19 individual -- 20 A. Uh-huh.