0001 01 IN THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS 01 FOR THE FIFTH CIRCUIT 02 02 03 CELIA J. CHIU; DENISE BROWN; * 03 VERONICA C. JENKINS; DENISE * 04 KIRKE; ALFRED G. KIRKE; AND * 04 KENNETH R. JOHNSON * 05 * 05 Plaintiffs/Appellees, * 06 * 06 VS. * 07 * 07 PLANO INDEPENDENT SCHOOL * 08 DISTRICT, ET AL. * 08 * 09 Defendants, * CIVIL ACTION NO. 09 * 00-40613 10 JAMES DAVIS, DR., PISD CENTRAL * 10 CLUSTER AREA ASSISTANT * 11 SUPERINTENDENT; MARILYN BROOKS, * 11 ASSOCIATE SUPERINTENDENT FOR * 12 CURRICULUM AND INSTRUCTIONS; * 12 JAMES WOHLGEHAGEN, DR.; * 13 ROXANNE BURLESON, PRINCIPAL * 13 HAGGARD MIDDLE SCHOOL; CORKY * 14 CRISWELL, PRINCIPAL HENDRICK * 14 MIDDLE SCHOOL; BEVERLY SELLERS, * 15 PRINCIPAL WILSON MIDDLE SCHOOL, * 15 * 16 Defendants/Appellants. * 16 17 18 ******************************************** 19 ORAL DEPOSITION OF 20 MARILYN BROOKS 21 SEPTEMBER 28, 2000 22 ******************************************** 23 24 ORAL DEPOSITION OF MARILYN BROOKS, produced as 25 a witness at the instance of the Plaintiffs, and duly 0002 01 sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered cause 02 on the 28th day of September, 2000, from 9:17 a.m. to 03 12:17 p.m., before Sunny Schaen, a CSR in and for the 04 State of Texas, reported stenographically, at the 05 offices of Abernathy Roeder Boyd & Joplin, P.C., 06 1700 Redbud Boulevard, Suite 300, McKinney, Texas 07 75070-1210, pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil 08 Procedure and the provisions stated on the record. 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0003 01 A P P E A R A N C E S 02 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: 02 Mr. William Charles Bundren 03 Attorney at Law 03 P. O. Box 702647 04 Dallas, Texas 75370 04 (972) 630-3555 05 05 06 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: 06 Mr. Charles J. Crawford 07 ABERNATHY ROEDER BOYD & JOPLIN, P.C. 07 1700 Redbud Boulevard 08 Suite 300 08 P.O. Box 1210 09 McKinney, Texas 75070-1210 09 (214) 544-4000 10 10 11 ALSO PRESENT: Mrs. Ronni Jenkins 11 Mr. Kenneth R. Johnson 12 Mr. Alfred Kirke 12 13 13 14 14 15 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 0004 01 I N D E X 01 02 WITNESS PAGE 02 MARILYN BROOKS 03 03 EXAMINATION 04 BY: MR. BUNDREN 9 04 05 05 06 EXHIBITS INDEX 06 07 EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED 07 08 1 Plano ISD FMA Regulation for the 78 08 Policy Labeled Student Activities: 09 Publications and Prior Review 09 10 2 Flier from Plano Independent School 90 10 District 11 11 3 Flier from Plano Independent School 93 12 District 12 13 4 Flier from Plano Independent School 94 13 District 14 14 5 Flier from Plano Independent School 94 15 District 15 16 6 Flier from Plano Independent School 95 16 District 17 17 7 Flier from Plano Independent School 95 18 District 18 19 8 Invitation to 6th Grade Math Parent 95 19 Night 20 20 9 Flier from Plano Independent School 96 21 District 21 22 10 Invitation to 6th Grade Wilson Math 96 22 Night 23 23 11 Invitation to 7th and 8th Grade Wilson 96 24 Math Night 24 25 25 0005 01 EXHIBITS INDEX (continued) 01 02 EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED 02 03 12 March 9, 1999, letter to Jennifer -- 03 Moore from Keith Sockwell 04 04 13 March 9, 1999, letter to Jennifer 97 05 Moore at the Office of Senator 05 Florence Shapiro from Marilyn Brooks 06 06 14 Presentation to SBOE on 3/5/99 of -- 07 Timothy Soh and a March 5, 1999, 07 Letter to Florence Shapiro from 08 Kenneth and Melissa Johnson 08 09 15 May 21, 1999, Letter to Parents of -- 09 the Plano Independent School District 10 10 16 May 25, 1999, Memo to Keith Sockwell -- 11 from Jeff Bailey with attached May 23, 11 1999, E-mail from Susan Sarhady to 12 Beverly Sellers 12 13 17 May 4, 1999, letter to Keith Sockwell -- 13 from Kenneth Johnson Re: Marilyn 14 Brooks' Remarks 14 15 18 November 11, 1998, letter to Becky -- 15 Taylor from Kenneth Johnson 16 Re: Connected Math Project - PISD 16 Schools 17 17 19 May 11, 1999, letter to Ronni Jenkins -- 18 from Keith Sockwell Re: E-mail to 18 Marilyn Brooks dated May 7, 1999 19 19 20 August 18, 1998, letter to Ronni -- 20 Jenkins and Cheryl Regan from John Muns 20 21 21 Level 1 Complaint of Kenneth 99 21 Johnson, et al. 22 22 22 Transcript of Level 1 Complaint dated 102 23 January 14, 1999 23 24 23 January 25, 1999, letter to Kenneth 103 24 Johnson from Marilyn Brooks 25 25 0006 01 EXHIBITS INDEX (continued) 01 02 EXHIBITS DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED 02 03 24 Statement to Plano ISD Board of 112 03 Trustees, dated March 2, 2000 04 04 25 Documentation of Time Worked 116 05 Connected Math Public Information 05 Request, dated February 1999 06 06 07 07 08 08 09 09 10 10 11 11 12 12 13 13 14 14 15 15 16 16 17 17 18 18 19 19 20 20 21 21 22 22 23 23 24 24 25 25 0007 01 P R O C E E D I N G S 02 MR. CRAWFORD: Charles, before we start 03 Marilyn's deposition, I want to hand you documents that 04 we believe are responsive to your Exhibit A to your 05 duces tecum. 06 MR. BUNDREN: Okay. 07 MR. CRAWFORD: The District is taking the 08 position that since you couched it as a request for 09 protection under Rule 30, that our responses aren't due 10 yet, because we haven't had the requisite 33 days. 11 But we are handing you -- these should be in 12 addition to what were previously produced to you in the 13 initial disclosures. And to the best of our knowledge, 14 that's all we have out there right now. And certainly 15 we will continue to look. And those copies are for 16 you. 17 MR. BUNDREN: Is it my understanding from 18 the District that this is all of the documents 19 responsive to Exhibit A for all the depositions we're 20 taking this week and next? 21 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, sir. 22 MR. BUNDREN: So I don't need to suspect 23 that I'll see something else later? 24 MR. CRAWFORD: Unless we find something 25 that we haven't already located. But we have put out a 0008 01 district-wide request for documents responsive, and 02 this is what we've been provided to date. 03 MR. BUNDREN: Mr. Abernathy, for 04 purposes of identification -- 05 MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Crawford. 06 MR. BUNDREN: Excuse me, Mr. Crawford. 07 MR. CRAWFORD: I appreciate the 08 promotion. 09 MR. BUNDREN: Sorry, Charles. For 10 purposes of identification of the depositions of the 11 Defendants' witnesses, and then you're taking some 12 witnesses of the Plaintiffs, do you want to just 13 sequentially mark these? 14 MR. CRAWFORD: I think that would be the 15 easiest way to do it. 16 MR. BUNDREN: All right. And I'll label 17 it Deposition Exhibit 1, and then sequentially after 18 that. 19 MR. CRAWFORD: That would be fair. 20 MR. BUNDREN: Is this a group of 21 exhibits, or is that -- do you know? 22 MR. CRAWFORD: That's the way it was 23 given to me. So, quite frankly, I don't know. 24 MR. BUNDREN: It appears to me that 25 these are signed by different people, so I'm going to 0009 01 separate them out. 02 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. 03 MR. BUNDREN: Mr. Crawford, would you 04 look at those and see if those appear to you to be 05 together? They aren't stapled, but it appears that one 06 is referencing the other two. I don't want to connect 07 something that's not supposed to be connected. 08 MR. CRAWFORD: It appears to me to be the 09 same. And it looks like the first page of one of six, 10 of the fax line. And the last one you handed me is six 11 of six. 12 MR. BUNDREN: Right. 13 MR. CRAWFORD: So that appears to be the 14 case. 15 (Exhibit Nos. 1 through 20 marked.) 16 MR. BUNDREN: Mr. Crawford, let me hand 17 you what I have marked as originals 1 through 20 and 18 then ask that, from the District's perspective, is that 19 the documents that they're producing? 20 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes. 21 MR. BUNDREN: Great, thanks. 22 MARILYN BROOKS, 23 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: 24 MR. BUNDREN: Do you want to take this 25 under the Rules? 0010 01 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes. 02 MR. BUNDREN: All right. 03 EXAMINATION 04 BY MR. BUNDREN: 05 Q. Would you state your name for the record, 06 please. 07 A. Yes. My name is Marilyn Brooks. 08 Q. Ms. Brooks, have you ever had your deposition 09 taken before? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Have you ever testified live in court before? 12 A. No. 13 Q. You've had an opportunity to talk with the 14 District's attorneys concerning the process of a 15 deposition; is that right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. This is an informal proceeding, although the 18 court reporter is here and she's taking down testimony, 19 and that testimony will be transcribed into a booklet. 20 You've taken an oath to tell the truth on all the 21 questions that you are asked either by me or the 22 District's attorneys. 23 And I want you to understand that this is the 24 same as if we were up in Sherman before the judge and 25 the jury. And it's the same as if the judge was 0011 01 sitting there and the jury was sitting there listening 02 to your testimony. Do you understand that? 03 A. Yes. 04 Q. And you understand that if you testify 05 differently today than what you have previously 06 testified under oath in affidavits or anything else in 07 this case, or if you testify differently at trial, I'm 08 entitled to call that to the judge and jury's 09 attention. You understand that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you do understand that false testimony 12 could subject you to the laws of perjury? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. If I ask you a question today that you don't 15 understand, I'd ask you to ask me to clarify the 16 question before you try to answer it. Will you do 17 that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. If you don't hear my question, would you ask 20 me to repeat it before you try to answer it? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And if you will let me finish my question 23 before you answer, I'll try to give you the courtesy of 24 letting you complete your answer before I ask you the 25 next question. Is that agreeable? 0012 01 A. Certainly. 02 Q. What is your date of birth? 03 A. August 17, 1941. 04 Q. Where were you born? 05 A. I was born in Arkansas in a very small town 06 that no longer exists. 07 Q. What is your social security number? 08 THE WITNESS: Is that something that I'm 09 obligated to give? 10 MR. CRAWFORD: If you feel uncomfortable 11 giving that to Mr. Bundren, let him know. If 12 you're comfortable giving it to him, go ahead and give 13 it to him. 14 A. I'm very uncomfortable with giving my social 15 security number. 16 Q. Why is that? 17 A. I don't understand its relevancy. 18 Q. Well, that's not an objection to giving 19 information in a deposition. 20 A. And it frightens me to give out my social 21 security to someone I don't know. 22 Q. That's not an objection. Do you have another 23 reason? 24 A. I am just very uncomfortable with giving my 25 social security number. 0013 01 Q. Well -- 02 THE WITNESS: Must I do that, 03 Mr. Crawford? 04 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, we will object on 05 confidentiality and privacy concerns. And, Charles, 06 what I would suggest is, why don't we leave a blank in 07 the deposition. And if you feel the need to take this 08 up later, we can have her fill it in if the judge so 09 orders. 10 MR. BUNDREN: Well -- 11 MR. CRAWFORD: If she's uncomfortable 12 with giving that number based on privacy fears and 13 concerns, I'm certainly not going to require her to 14 answer the question. 15 MR. BUNDREN: Well, Mr. Crawford, I'm not 16 aware of any case law or statutory law that protects 17 social security numbers when a witness is being 18 deposed. If you're familiar with one, I'll be happy to 19 look at it. 20 MR. CRAWFORD: Again, I'm letting the 21 witness make that determination for herself. If she's 22 uncomfortable giving it to you, I suggest we leave a 23 blank in the transcript and then we can visit that 24 later. 25 Q. Ms. Brooks, do you refuse to answer that 0014 01 question? 02 A. I said to you that I'm very uncomfortable with 03 giving you my social security number. 04 Q. That was not my question. I asked very 05 straightforward, do you refuse to answer my question 06 about your social security number? 07 A. I would have to ask my attorney if legally 08 I'll obligated to do so. 09 MR. CRAWFORD: My answer to that is that 10 I think that Mr. Bundren has a right to ask that 11 question of you. 12 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. 13 MR. CRAWFORD: If you're comfortable 14 answering that question, then you should. But if you 15 truly have a fear about giving your social security 16 number out in a public forum, then I will respect your 17 decision and -- 18 A. I -- I do fear giving my social security 19 number out. 20 Q. What is the basis of your fear? 21 A. I believe that that should be kept very 22 private. I know that there are instances where 23 people's identities have actually been taken and 24 something has been done with it. I'm just very 25 uncomfortable with that. I protect my social security 0015 01 number very carefully. 02 Q. Do you refuse to answer my question? 03 A. Must I answer it legally? I don't want to do 04 something that's illegal, Mr. Bundren. I'm just simply 05 telling you that I'm very uncomfortable. 06 Q. I understand that you have an unsubstantiated 07 fear of that. My question is, do you refuse to answer 08 the question? 09 A. Can I be guaranteed that that social security 10 number will never leave this room or these documents? 11 Q. I'm not going to answer questions. You're 12 here to answer questions. And we're going to get along 13 real well if you will answer my questions. 14 And my question is, do you refuse to answer 15 the question of what is your social security number? 16 A. Yes, sir, at this time I do. 17 Q. What is your driver's license number? 18 A. I'll have to look that up for you, but I also 19 have the same fear there. I don't understand this. 20 Could I understand -- 21 Q. What is your driver's license number? And 22 you're free to go look it up if you need to go look it 23 up. 24 A. It's here in my purse, sir. 25 THE WITNESS: Could I understand why I 0016 01 need to give my social security number and my driver's 02 license number? 03 MR. CRAWFORD: I certainly cannot answer 04 Mr. Bundren's thinking as to why he feels it's 05 necessary. And so I'm not going to assume any purpose 06 that Mr. Bundren has for that. 07 I am not instructing you not to answer, but I 08 am telling you that if you have a true fear of that 09 information being out in the public domain, you can 10 choose not to answer -- or not. 11 Please be advised, though, that if you don't 12 answer it and Mr. Bundren has to go to the Court and 13 the Court requires you to answer it, then Mr. Bundren 14 would be able, as a sanction, to ask for his fees and 15 expenses in obtaining that information. Now, that's a 16 risk that you take. I'm not instructing you not to 17 answer or to answer. That is on your plate. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. 19 MR. CRAWFORD: I just want you to be 20 fully advised as to the consequences if you don't 21 answer and Mr. Bundren is found to be entitled to that 22 information. 23 THE WITNESS: All right. That's fine. 24 A. Driver's license number -- 25 Q. Would you just take it out and show it to me, 0017 01 please? 02 A. (Witness complies.) 03 Q. If you would, read the number that is on your 04 license, please. 05 A. ********* 06 Q. Is that a Texas operator's license? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Is that current? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Is that the current address? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Where do you currently reside? 13 A. 2618 Park Boulevard in Plano. 14 Q. How long have you resided there? 15 A. At that address, since 1970, approximately. 16 Q. How are you currently employed? 17 A. I'm employed by the Plano Independent School 18 District. 19 Q. What is your position at the current time? 20 A. I'm the associate superintendent for 21 curriculum and instruction. 22 Q. What are your duties and responsibilities in 23 that position? 24 A. I'm responsible for all of the curriculum and 25 instruction areas in the school district; that is, 0018 01 keeping the curriculum up to date, being sure that 02 we're following the state legislative mandates for the 03 Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills. 04 I'm responsible for a number of our special 05 programs: special education, bilingual ESL, gifted and 06 talented, all of our fine arts, anything that has to do 07 will elementary or secondary education. 08 I'm also responsible for staff development in 09 the District. And I'm responsible for the research, 10 testing, and evaluation departments. I'm also 11 responsible for budgeting for that particular area in 12 the District, for helping to design and plan buildings, 13 school buildings, so that it meets the curriculum. And 14 there are a myriad of other things that I can't think 15 of at the moment. 16 Q. Does the connected math program fall within 17 your jurisdiction? 18 A. Mathematics falls within my jurisdiction. 19 Q. Does the CMP fall within that? 20 A. Well, that is a part of the mathematics 21 program. 22 Q. You said elementary and secondary schools. 23 Are you including all grades? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Grades 1 through 12? 0019 01 A. Actually, to be absolutely accurate, I need to 02 say Pre-K through 12. 03 Q. Okay. It includes middle schools? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. Okay. So the implementation of the CMP 06 program in the middle schools is something that you're 07 responsible for? 08 A. Ultimately, yes. 09 Q. Who is your immediate supervisor? 10 A. Dr. Doug Otto. 11 Q. How long have you been in the position of 12 associate superintendent? 13 A. I've either been assistant or associate 14 superintendent for curriculum and instruction for -- I 15 think since 1992. 16 Q. Since 1992, have your duties and 17 responsibilities changed? 18 A. They tend to grow, yes. I have added staff 19 development responsibilities fairly recently. Let me 20 think if there's anything else that's been added 21 recently. That's probably the major one. 22 Q. What position did you have prior to 1992? 23 A. I was assistant superintendent for 24 communications and student services. 25 Q. What years did you hold that position? 0020 01 A. I don't recall the exact year that I became an 02 assistant superintendent, but I began my duties as 03 communications director in 1980, and sometime 04 thereafter was given the title of assistant 05 superintendent. 06 Q. Was that for the Plano Independent School 07 District? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. When did you enter public education? 10 A. I began my career in public education 34 years 11 ago in 1967 -- '67. 12 Q. Where were you working then? 13 A. Plano Independent School District. 14 Q. What was your position? 15 A. I was a teacher. 16 Q. What next position did you have in public 17 education? 18 A. I became a counselor. 19 Q. When was that? 20 A. Probably about 1970 or so. I'm not absolutely 21 sure when it was, '70 or '71, but somewhere in that 22 area. 23 Q. And what was your next position? 24 A. Following that, I was an assistant principal 25 at the secondary level. 0021 01 Q. And what grades are secondary level? 02 A. At one point, that was for 9 and 10 school. 03 And then we changed grade levels and it became 6, 7, 04 and 8. 05 Q. What year did you become an assistant 06 principal? 07 A. Let me think a minute. It was mid-'70s, 08 probably -- let's see -- I was probably a counselor -- 09 maybe '73, '74, somewhere in that area. I'm not -- I 10 can't give you the exact year. 11 Q. What was your next position? 12 A. Then I was an elementary school principal. 13 Q. When did you take that position? 14 A. That was about 1977, I believe. 15 Q. And how many years were you an elementary 16 school principal? 17 A. Slightly less than three. 18 Q. And then did you move to communications 19 director? 20 A. Yes, in 1980. I think that's pretty close 21 year-wise. 22 Q. This is all with the Plano Independent School 23 District? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. So you've been a teacher, a counselor, an 0022 01 assistant principal, an elementary school principal, 02 director of communications and student services, and 03 now an associate or assistant superintendent? 04 A. Yes. I was also assistant superintendent for 05 communications and student services during that period 06 of time. 07 Q. What does the assistant superintendent for 08 communications and student services -- what are your 09 duties and responsibilities in that position? 10 A. What were they? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. All of the communications for the District. 13 That involved publications, working with news media. I 14 took care of the policies of the school district. 15 The student services part of that involved 16 working with any special services for students, such as 17 counseling, the nurses, drug and alcohol education. 18 That may not be an exhaustive list, but that's 19 basically it. 20 Q. And how long did you have responsibility over 21 those categories? 22 A. In that area, it would you have been from 1980 23 until '92 when I assumed the curriculum and instruction 24 role. 25 Q. And then once you went into that area, you no 0023 01 longer had responsibility over publications, news 02 media, policies of the school district, counseling, 03 those type of issues? 04 A. Actually I took counseling with me. They 05 moved counseling and nurses with me in 1992 when I 06 moved to be in curriculum and instruction. 07 Q. Okay. 08 A. I no longer have them, but I had them then. 09 Q. Have you held any other positions with the 10 Plano Independent School District? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Have you ever worked for another school 13 district? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Have you ever worked in private education? 16 A. Private education? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. No. 19 Q. Held any other jobs of any kind? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What other kind of jobs have you held? 22 A. I was self -- my husband and I were 23 self-employed in the retail business for approximately 24 eight years. Before that, I worked in an insurance 25 agency. I worked for a bank. I think that's it. It's 0024 01 been a long time. 02 Q. What is your highest level of certification 03 that you've received? 04 A. I'm certified as a school administrator. 05 Q. When did you receive that certification? 06 A. That was probably -- let's see -- I graduated 07 with my master's in '73 -- somewhere in the early to 08 mid-'70s. 09 Q. Okay. What other certifications do you have? 10 A. I'm certified as a teacher and as a school 11 administrator. 12 Q. When did you receive -- 13 A. And I'm certified as a counselor. 14 Q. When did you receive your teacher's 15 certification? 16 A. Approximately when I graduated with my 17 bachelor's degree, which would have been in January of 18 1968. 19 Q. And then when did you receive your counselor's 20 certification? 21 A. That would have been about 1970 -- well, 22 that's a little tricky because I graduated with my 23 master's degree with the counseling in 1973. I do not 24 remember the year that we began the actual licensure in 25 the state of Texas. I can't tell you that exact year. 0025 01 It's been a number of years. I just don't remember 02 that year. 03 Q. Now, you say that you have a certificate in 04 school administration. Are there differing levels of 05 school administration? 06 A. To the best of my recollection, at the time 07 that mine was given, it was an all-level certificate. 08 Q. Are there different -- 09 A. I'm not sure about that. 10 Q. Are there different levels today? 11 A. I really don't know. 12 Q. Okay. Are you certified as a superintendent? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. When did you receive that certification? 15 A. Actually I don't know that. That would have 16 been sometime during those years, but I don't know 17 when. 18 Q. Sometime during those years? What years do 19 you mean? 20 A. That would have been probably -- master's 21 degree in '73 -- let's see. That was probably -- that 22 was probably finished perhaps in the early '80s -- 23 early to mid-'80s. 24 Q. Okay. 25 A. I don't remember exactly. 0026 01 Q. Do you have a mid-school certification? 02 A. A mid-school certification? I believe it's an 03 all-level certification. 04 Q. And these certifications are certifications 05 that you received from the Texas Education Agency? 06 A. Uh-huh. 07 Q. Is that correct? 08 A. Uh-huh. 09 Q. You need to answer with words. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Thank you. Has your certification ever been 12 revoked for any reason? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Has it ever been suspended for any reason? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Has anyone ever challenged your certification? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Have you ever had any public complaints 19 concerning your certification? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Between 1980 and 1992 when you were the 22 assistant -- or assistant superintendent of 23 communications and services and had responsibility for 24 policies in the school district, did you also have 25 responsibility for training of your principals on your 0027 01 campuses of how to implement those policies? 02 A. I don't know that it was an actual written 03 responsibility for me, but we did do some training with 04 principals periodically about policies, yes. 05 Q. Now, when we talk about policies, let's be 06 sure that we're communicating correctly. There are 07 certain written policies that are adopted by the Board 08 of Trustees of the school district. Is that what 09 you're referring to? 10 A. There are written policies adopted by the 11 Board. There are also -- there are actually legal 12 policies and local policies adopted by the Board. At 13 that time, the Board also adopted regulations. 14 Q. Between 1980 and 1992? 15 A. Well, I don't know exactly when they stopped 16 adopting regulations, but somewhere in that time they 17 did adopt the regulations. 18 Q. So there's legal policies, there's local 19 policies, and there's regulations. Now, in addition to 20 that, there are unwritten procedures that the school 21 district follows, isn't there? 22 A. Yes, I would say. 23 Q. There are what I would refer to as a custom or 24 a practice within the school district? 25 A. Yes, that's fair. 0028 01 Q. And certain things the administrators of the 02 school district simply know to do because that's the 03 custom and practice of what they've been taught -- the 04 way we've always done it, right? 05 A. Probably, yes. 06 Q. Okay. Well, you know that to be true, don't 07 you? 08 A. I'm just trying to think of some of them but, 09 yes, I would say that would be true. 10 Q. Not every activity and not everything that an 11 administrator does is written into a policy? 12 A. I agree with that. I see what you're saying. 13 Yes. 14 Q. So there are customs and practices that simply 15 kind of evolve because that's the way we've always done 16 it around here? 17 A. Yes, probably. 18 Q. You've seen that over the 30-plus years that 19 you've been at the PISD, haven't you? 20 A. I know that I must have, but I'm just not 21 thinking of one right now. 22 Q. During the years that you were responsible for 23 the policies -- I think you said from 1980 to 1992? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Were you simply the custodian of those 0029 01 policies, or were you responsible for seeing that 02 people followed those policies? 03 A. I was not responsible for seeing that people 04 followed them, no. 05 Q. Who had that responsibility? 06 A. That responsibility would lie with the 07 superintendent of schools, with the school board who 08 actually makes the policies, and with the building 09 principals. 10 Q. So when you talked about policies, what was 11 your responsibility concerning the policies during that 12 period of time? 13 A. Okay, to work with Texas Association of School 14 Boards once we began working with them. When I first 15 entered the role, we were not working with the Texas 16 Association of School Boards. That was before they had 17 begun their policy service. 18 Q. They're also referred to as TASB? 19 A. Yes, yeah -- 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. -- to just work with them, because they would 22 send policies for us to look at, to take to the Board 23 for adoption, to write our local policies or to work 24 with them to write our local policies, and to work with 25 writing the procedures that went with them, the 0030 01 regulations. 02 Q. When did the Plano Independent School District 03 start working with TASB on reviewing policies and 04 writing policies and adopting policies? 05 A. I can't tell you the exact year. It was 06 sometime during the period of time that I was there 07 doing that job because I helped to do that, but I don't 08 remember what year. 09 Q. Sometime in the mid-'80s? 10 A. I don't remember what year. 11 Q. Now, TASB doesn't have any authority to 12 dictate policy to the local school district, do they? 13 A. Only the school board can actually adopt 14 policy. 15 Q. So the answer to my question is they don't 16 have that authority -- TASB does not -- 17 A. Not to my knowledge. 18 Q. TASB makes a recommendation of the policy, 19 right? 20 A. They actually send us legal policies, which we 21 consider to be more than a recommendation. 22 Q. What do you consider them to be? 23 A. Legal policies reviewed by their -- by their 24 legal staff and recommended to school boards in Texas. 25 Q. It doesn't mean that the local school board 0031 01 must adopt that policy, does it? 02 A. That's up to the local board. I don't know 03 that. 04 Q. Let's talk a little bit about the connected 05 math program. When did that program first come into 06 use in the Plano Independent School District? 07 A. I would say approximately five years ago. We 08 piloted the program first in four schools. And I 09 believe that this is our second year for full 10 implementation. I'm going to have to say 11 approximately. 12 Q. How did you come to become aware of a 13 connected math program? Now, this is a curriculum, as 14 I understand it; is that right? 15 A. It's a part of a curriculum or it can be a 16 curriculum, either -- you can use it either way. 17 Q. When did you first become aware of connected 18 math? 19 A. When my math coordinator -- secondary math 20 coordinator, Dr. Jim Wohlgehagen, brought it to my 21 attention. 22 Q. And what did he say about it when he brought 23 it to your attention? 24 A. There's no way that I would recall the exact 25 conversation. 0032 01 Q. Just give the me the gist of the conversation. 02 A. The gist would be that we were looking for 03 ways to improve our mathematics programming and that he 04 had investigated a number of programs and felt that 05 this was a good program for us to work with and wanted 06 to pilot the program. 07 Q. At that time, you were responsible for overall 08 curriculum? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you answered to the superintendent? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And Jim Wohlgehagen answered to you? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And he had the specific responsibility for the 15 math curriculum? 16 A. Yes, secondary. 17 Q. Secondary math curriculum? 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. So what did you do in response to his 20 suggestion that you pilot the program? 21 A. He -- I didn't do anything other than saying 22 to him, if you would like to look at a program, then 23 you'll need to visit with the principals. I'll visit 24 with the superintendent, and we'll begin to look at the 25 program. 0033 01 Q. Did he provide you some materials on the 02 connected math program? 03 A. At some point in time, I sat down with him to 04 look at materials. I don't recall when that was 05 exactly in the process. 06 Q. Now, your responsibility at this time was to 07 review curriculum, to investigate curriculum, and to 08 make recommendations? 09 A. My exact responsibility is to see that that is 10 done. I may not do it myself. 11 Q. But to oversee it? 12 A. But to see that that is done, yes. 13 Q. And to supervise it? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So if a new curriculum wanted to come in on 16 science or a new curriculum wanted to come in on 17 English or a new curriculum wanted to come in on 18 geography, it's your overall responsibility to review 19 that and then to make a recommendation to the 20 superintendent? 21 A. It's my overall responsibility to see that 22 that's reviewed. In a District this large, that's 23 usually done by that area expert coordinator and 24 teachers, yes. 25 Q. And then a recommendation is eventually made 0034 01 to whom? 02 A. To the Board. 03 Q. And who is that recommendation carried to the 04 Board by? 05 A. The superintendent, usually. 06 Q. So the superintendent at some point is brought 07 into the loop on what you're looking at? 08 A. Sure, yes. 09 Q. All right. How long after Dr. Wohlgehagen 10 came to you did you bring the superintendent into the 11 loop on this connected math program? 12 A. I don't remember exactly when I would have 13 done that. We -- with this kind of thing, you 14 usually talk about it over a long period of time. And 15 I don't remember exactly when I might have done that. 16 Q. Well, somebody has to keep it on point, don't 17 they? 18 A. Yes. And that's what we depend upon our 19 subject coordinators to do. 20 Q. So Dr. Wohlgehagen, was he the guy that kept 21 it on point? 22 A. Yes, he did. 23 Q. He kept pushing it, bringing it up, talking 24 about it, discussing it with you? 25 A. What do you mean by on point? 0035 01 Q. I mean staying after it to be sure that it's 02 something that gets to the superintendent and 03 eventually to the Board. 04 A. Yes, I would say he took care of that. 05 Q. He was your point man, so to speak? 06 A. Yes, that's his job. 07 Q. Okay. What year did you pilot this program? 08 A. I can't give you the exact year. 09 THE WITNESS: Mr. Crawford, I didn't 10 bring those years because I did not realize that we 11 were going to be talking about the program itself. I 12 thought that had already been taken care of. 13 MR. CRAWFORD: Just answer his questions 14 to the best of your recollection. 15 A. Okay. Would you repeat the question then? 16 Q. What years -- or what year did you start the 17 pilot program? 18 A. I can't give you the exact year. 19 Q. You said that the program has been fully 20 implemented -- 21 A. A couple of years. So if we go back -- 22 Q. Was it '97, '98? 23 A. This would be -- 24 Q. I assume when you implement, you implement 25 beginning with the September school year? 0036 01 A. '98-'99, '99-2000, 2000-2001 -- I think we'd 02 have to go back to maybe perhaps '96-'97, but I'm very 03 hesitant to give you that year exactly. 04 Q. So sometime prior to the '98-'99 school year 05 you had a pilot program? 06 A. Yes, we were piloting a program. 07 Q. Now, describe what you did -- what you mean by 08 pilot the program. 09 A. Dr. Wohlgehagen spoke with middle school 10 principals. We constantly are looking at new 11 programming and how we can improve. Some of them 12 wanted to implement the program. Four of them asked to 13 do so. And we call it a pilot because we were not 14 doing it in all of the schools. We only did it in some 15 of the schools. 16 Q. So during one school year sometime prior to 17 the '98-'99 school year -- we can agree on that, can't 18 we? 19 A. Yeah. I just -- I'm sorry, I can't tell you 20 the exact year. 21 Q. Well, you know that by 1998 you had the 22 Plaintiffs in this case complaining -- 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. -- so you'd already piloted the program prior 25 to that. 0037 01 A. That's true. 02 Q. All right. So we can agree that prior to the 03 '98-'99 school year, you had a pilot program at four 04 schools? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. What four schools were those? 07 A. That was Bowman, Haggard, Armstrong -- I've 08 lost my fourth school -- Wilson. 09 Q. Were those middle schools? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And what grade levels were middle schools? 12 A. Middle schools are 6th, 7th, and 8th grades. 13 Q. Did the pilot program at Bowman, Haggard, 14 Armstrong, and Wilson replace the current curriculum -- 15 or let me put it this way -- the curriculum that had 16 existed there with respect to math? 17 A. I can't tell you exactly whether it totally 18 replaced the current curriculum or not. The teachers 19 would have been working with Dr. Wohlgehagen during 20 this period of time to begin to use some of the 21 connected math program. They may have used part of it 22 and then part of the -- the other program. 23 The major thing you have to understand about 24 the math program -- whatever we call it -- is that what 25 we start with first are the Texas Essential Knowledge 0038 01 and Skills. At that time, they were still the 02 essential elements. So those would never have been 03 replaced, but some of the methodology may have changed. 04 Q. Now, you call it a pilot program. What you 05 were really doing was kind of a test case, seeing how 06 it worked, seeing how it was implemented in your 07 schools, seeing how the kids reacted to it; isn't that 08 right? 09 A. We called it a pilot program because we used 10 it in only four of our schools rather than all of our 11 schools. 12 Q. It's a Beta test? 13 A. No, I would not say it was a Beta test. The 14 program itself had already been tested, I understand, 15 but we were using it in only four of our schools. So 16 consequently, we called it a pilot program because we 17 didn't have it in all of our schools. 18 Q. Did the Board of Trustees of the school 19 district approve the pilot program prior to the time 20 you implemented it? 21 A. Not to my knowledge. 22 Q. Why not? 23 A. We don't necessarily take those programs to 24 the Board when we are looking at new programs. We did 25 take it later to the Board, but we did not at that 0039 01 time. We may have discussed it with them. As a matter 02 of fact, I think we did, but I don't recall that they 03 actually approved it, per se. 04 Q. Did you actually take it to them for their 05 adoption and implementation so that they voted on it? 06 A. Before we began the full -- 07 Q. Before you -- yes, I'm sorry -- before you 08 began the pilot program? 09 A. Not to my knowledge. The reason for that is 10 because we were still working with the State-required 11 essential elements at that time, and then later the 12 Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills. 13 Q. Did you notify the parents at Bowman, Haggard, 14 Armstrong, and Wilson that you were going to be 15 implementing this pilot program on connected math prior 16 to the time that you did that? 17 A. Dr. Wohlgehagen, the principals, and the 18 teachers worked with that. I can't tell you exactly 19 what they did. 20 Q. What did they tell you they did? 21 A. That people were notified and that we had 22 meetings and those kinds of things. 23 Q. What do you mean meetings? 24 A. Informational kinds of meetings for parents. 25 Q. Parent-teacher meetings? 0040 01 A. Uh-huh, yes. 02 Q. Meetings in which parents were invited to come 03 onto the school campus to meet to talk about this? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. Prior to the time that you started this pilot 06 program on connected math, did you have a traditional 07 math curriculum? 08 A. Please define traditional math curriculum. 09 Q. Arithmetic. 10 A. We still do have arithmetic. 11 Q. In all your schools? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What did the connected math program replace? 14 A. Actually -- 15 Q. And let me clarify. I'm still in the pilot 16 program. We haven't gotten to full implementation yet. 17 The pilot program, what did it replace? 18 A. The connected math program, to my 19 understanding, maintains mathematics. It's just some 20 different ways -- a more hands-on approach, a more 21 problem solving approach that the teachers use to work 22 with the children to get them more involved in 23 mathematics. So I can't honestly tell you that it 24 replaced anything. 25 Q. Well, you had to change something in your 0041 01 curriculum, didn't you? 02 A. I think I just said that, that when you look 03 at this connected mathematics program, or any one of a 04 number of other programs, what you're doing is you're 05 maintaining the essential elements or the Texas 06 Essential Knowledge and Skills. You're maintaining, if 07 you will, arithmetic. 08 What you're doing is you're giving the teacher 09 more tools so that they have different ways of working 10 with children in the classroom, so that things 11 become -- the children become more involved. Things 12 become more hands-on. It's a more problem solving 13 approach. 14 Q. In order to do this pilot program, did the 15 teachers have to develop lesson plans? 16 A. Yes, the teachers developed lesson plans. 17 Q. That's required, isn't it? 18 A. We no longer actually -- I don't know of any 19 law that says a teacher must develop lesson plans, but 20 teachers do that. 21 Q. And did the teachers that were teaching 22 connected math as a pilot program at Bowman, Haggard, 23 Armstrong, and Wilson have lesson plans? 24 A. I can't answer for every teacher. 25 Q. You would expect them to, wouldn't you? 0042 01 A. If I were the building principal, I would 02 expect to see something. 03 Q. Did the District acquire any connected math 04 curriculum programs from an outside vendor? 05 A. Connected math programs from an outside 06 vendor? Well, we have to get textbooks. 07 Q. Right. 08 A. Or we have to get materials. 09 Q. You've got to get materials; you've got to get 10 textbooks. 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. You've got to get stuff that describes the 13 program because the District didn't create the program, 14 did you? 15 A. We create our mathematics curriculum, but we 16 use a lot of things to do that. 17 Q. And who is it that came up and created this 18 connected math program? 19 A. To the best of my knowledge, the connected 20 math program was a part of -- came from the National 21 Science Foundation, as best I understand. 22 Q. Where did you -- 23 A. If you ask me who, I can't tell you exactly 24 who. 25 Q. Where did you get your curriculum materials 0043 01 and textbooks, items that you used to teach the 02 students during the pilot program? 03 A. Well, I'm sure Dr. Wohlgehagen got some of 04 this from -- I mean, he would have bought materials or 05 gotten materials. Teachers would have created some 06 materials. We would mostly like have used the 07 materials that we already had. 08 Q. You had the overall responsibility for 09 curriculum materials at this time, didn't you? 10 A. Working through my coordinators and the 11 principals and teachers, yes. 12 Q. But the ultimate responsibility for being sure 13 that you had appropriate materials for the curriculum 14 that was going to be implemented was yours? 15 A. It's my responsibility to see that materials 16 are there, working through the coordinators, the 17 principals, and other people in the District who handle 18 procuring materials. 19 Q. During the pilot program, did you implement 20 this in all grades at Bowman, Haggard, Armstrong, and 21 Wilson? 22 A. I do not recall the exact implementation of 23 the pilot program. 24 Q. Were all children at those schools given this 25 program? 0044 01 A. If we implemented at a 6th grade, for example, 02 then all 6th graders would have worked with the 03 program. 04 Q. And during the pilot program, were all 05 children given connected math program textbooks? 06 A. During the pilot program at the beginning, 07 there were not textbooks, I don't believe, at that 08 time. There were other materials developed. 09 You need to understand that with a curriculum, 10 it is not necessarily textbook dependent. We develop a 11 curriculum around the essential elements or around the 12 Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills, and we use a lot 13 of materials. Some of them are teacher-made. Some of 14 them are purchased. Some of them may be technology. 15 Q. Who would be the person most knowledgeable 16 with the sources that you used to obtain materials on 17 the connected math program? 18 A. Dr. Jim Wohlgehagen. 19 Q. Was he given a budget to go out and purchase 20 materials for this connected math program? 21 A. He works within the curriculum budget, but all 22 the curriculum coordinators have some budget, yes, 23 that they can use to purchase materials. 24 Q. And at this time, he was the math curriculum 25 coordinator? 0045 01 A. Secondary math curriculum coordinator, yes, 02 and still is. 03 Q. And he answered to you? 04 A. Yes. 05 Q. And you answered to the superintendent? 06 A. Actually there was one level between 07 Dr. Wohlgehagen and me at that time. 08 Q. Who was that? 09 A. That was Donna Criswell, who was the executive 10 director for curriculum and instruction. 11 Q. So the superintendent reported to the Board; 12 then you reported to the superintendent? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. And Donna Criswell reported to you? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. And -- 17 A. Jim -- 18 Q. -- Jim Wohlgehagen -- 19 A. -- to Donna. 20 Q. -- to Donna? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. But it was not unusual for Dr. Wohlgehagen to 23 come directly to you, though, was it? 24 A. It was not unusual for the three of us to 25 speak together. 0046 01 Q. And Dr. Wohlgehagen was the guy who was really 02 pushing this program. He was the point man on the 03 program, right? 04 A. He was the person who went out to look for 05 ways to improve our mathematics curriculum, yes. 06 Q. And he was the evangelist for the program? 07 A. He was supportive of the program, yes. 08 Q. That's what I mean. He was the guy that was 09 kind of pushing it, supportive, encouraging you to 10 learn about it? 11 A. That's his job. Yes, he did that. 12 Q. I didn't say it wasn't his job. 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. I'm just saying, he was the evangelist, wasn't 15 he? 16 MR. CRAWFORD: Object to the 17 characterization of Dr. Wohlgehagen as an evangelist. 18 Q. He was out there pushing it, trying to get it 19 into the school, wasn't he? 20 A. He was struggling hard to find programs to 21 help improve our math program. 22 Q. And he's the guy that initiated it at Plano 23 Independent School District, isn't he? 24 A. He's the person who brought it to our 25 attention, yes, that's correct. 0047 01 Q. All right, okay. Now, did you have a full 02 year of that pilot program? 03 A. A full year of the pilot program? 04 Q. A full school year. 05 A. To the best of my knowledge, we actually 06 piloted for about three years. 07 Q. Before you did what? 08 A. Before we put it into all of the schools. 09 Q. Before you took it to the Board? 10 A. The Board had knowledge of the program. I 11 can't tell you the first time that we -- I don't 12 remember the first time that we may have said something 13 to the Board about the program. 14 Q. Wasn't it like in March of 1999 that the Board 15 had an agenda item before it to adopt this program for 16 all the schools? 17 A. I don't recall a date. 18 Q. You don't? 19 A. No, I don't. 20 Q. Do you disagree that that's the date? 21 A. I can't agree or disagree because I really 22 don't remember. 23 Q. At some point, you took it to the Board and 24 asked them to implement it in all of your middle 25 schools, didn't you? 0048 01 A. Yes, but I can't give you a date. I don't 02 know the date. 03 Q. And prior to that, it was just a pilot 04 program; is that right? 05 A. It was a pilot because we were using it in 06 four of our schools rather than all of our schools. 07 Q. And how many middle schools did you have in 08 March of 1999? 09 A. Either 10 or 11, approximately. 10 Q. And until it was implemented fully in all of 11 your schools, it was only a pilot program; is that 12 correct? 13 A. It was a pilot program only because it was in 14 four schools. It was a full-fledged mathematics 15 program because it was a part of our math curriculum, 16 which is based on the essential elements and our Texas 17 Essential Knowledge and Skills. 18 Q. So you had a full-fledged math -- connected 19 math program in four schools? 20 A. We had a full-fledged math program with 21 connected math in four of our schools. 22 Q. That wasn't my question. 23 A. But that's my answer. 24 Q. Listen to my question. You had a connected 25 math program, full-fledged, in four schools until the 0049 01 Board implemented it across the board; is that right? 02 A. I don't know how to answer your question with 03 full-fledged, because I don't know how much in every 04 one of the single classrooms the program was used 05 totally during that period of time. So I'm hesitant 06 about the word full-fledged because I don't know that. 07 Q. Just listening to what you told me, you said a 08 moment ago that you had a full-fledged connected math 09 program for two or three years in four schools -- 10 A. We were -- 11 Q. -- before -- 12 A. -- working with the connected math program in 13 four of our schools, that's correct. 14 Q. And you did that for three years -- 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. -- before you went to the Board and asked for 17 it to be implemented across the District? 18 A. Yes -- not before we discussed it with the 19 Board, but before I think they actually got deeply 20 involved in approving it, yes. 21 Q. But they did not take a vote on it until after 22 three years of the pilot program? 23 A. Not that I can recall. 24 Q. Okay. Now, during this period of time of the 25 pilot program -- 0050 01 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. Can I take a 02 break? 03 MR. CRAWFORD: Let's take a break. 04 MR. BUNDREN: That's fine. No problem. 05 (Recess from 10:15 to 10:26 a.m.) 06 Q. During the three years of the pilot program, 07 did you have any textbooks on CMP? 08 A. No. 09 Q. Had any -- 10 A. There were materials that were duplicated. So 11 there were materials, but not textbooks. 12 Q. Had the Texas Education Association approved 13 any CMP textbooks during that pilot period? 14 A. I don't know that. Not to my knowledge. 15 Q. Did they review any CMP textbooks? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. You would know if they had, since that's your 18 responsibility, wouldn't you? 19 A. I wouldn't know what they had done, no. 20 Q. Don't you keep up with what they approve? 21 A. I would only know what was on the list for 22 textbooks to be approved when it was time for us to 23 select and adopt new textbooks. 24 Q. When it's time for you to select and adopt new 25 textbooks, are you restricted in what textbooks you can 0051 01 buy? 02 A. No. 03 Q. Do they have to be on an approved list? 04 A. I don't believe they have to be. We 05 ordinarily select textbooks that are on a list from the 06 Texas Education Agency. I think if we want to buy 07 other books, we could do that, but we would have to buy 08 them, whereas they provide the books they approve. 09 Q. Are you aware at some point that the Texas 10 Education Agency reviewed a CMP textbook and found 11 that it wasn't in compliance with essential skills? 12 MR. CRAWFORD: At this point in time, 13 Charles, I'm going to object. The issues relating to 14 the merits of the program have already been decided by 15 the Judge on summary judgment. And what remain are the 16 1st Amendment and 14th Amendment claims relating to the 17 mathematics and distribution of the literature. So I 18 think you're going outside of what would be relevant 19 and discoverable based on the Judge's ruling in the 20 case. 21 I was certainly trying to give you some 22 latitude to explore the parameters of the program, 23 because I think you have the right to do that. But I 24 think you're going into detail now that is not relevant 25 or discoverable based on the Judge's ruling in the 0052 01 case. 02 MR. BUNDREN: Read my question back to 03 the witness, please. 04 (Requested portion was read.) 05 MR. CRAWFORD: Again, I'm going to object 06 and -- 07 MR. BUNDREN: Your objection is noted. I 08 want an answer from the witness. 09 MR. CRAWFORD: And I'm going to instruct 10 the witness not to answer. 11 MR. BUNDREN: You can't instruct her not 12 to answer. This is a Federal deposition. You don't 13 have the right to do that unless it's a privilege. 14 You've made your objection. She has to answer the 15 question. 16 MR. CRAWFORD: And I believe that it's an 17 improper question and it's harassing and burdensome and 18 outside the discoverable -- 19 MR. BUNDREN: Counsel, you cannot object 20 and instruct the witness under Federal Rules unless 21 it's a privilege matter, and she has to answer the 22 question. I want an answer to the question. Your 23 objection is noted for the record and the Judge will 24 take that up at the time of trial. 25 MR. CRAWFORD: I'm going to object to the 0053 01 harassing nature of the question as going outside the 02 scope of discovery. 03 Q. Would you answer my question, please? 04 MR. CRAWFORD: Go ahead and answer the 05 question. I want to go ahead and -- so that we're 06 getting out of here quicker, I'm going to object to 07 your entire line of questioning in this area. And, 08 Charles, to speed this up, I'm going to ask for a 09 running objection to all this so I don't have to object 10 after every question. 11 MR. BUNDREN: I have no problem with your 12 running objection. 13 MR. CRAWFORD: Very good. With that 14 understanding, with the running objection, go ahead. 15 A. Would you repeat one more time, please? 16 Q. Let me reask the question. 17 A. Yes, please. 18 Q. Are you aware -- you are aware, are you not, 19 that the TEA reviewed some CMP textbooks and found 20 that they weren't in compliance with the state 21 requirement of essential skills? 22 A. TEA doesn't review for compliance. They 23 review for conforming or nonconforming. And a 24 nonconforming textbook is still appropriate for 25 adoption. 0054 01 Q. Were there criticisms from the TEA about the 02 CMP textbooks that they reviewed not complying with 03 basic skills? 04 A. Well, the textbook doesn't deal with 05 compliance, Mr. Bundren. It has to do with conforming 06 or nonconforming. Compliance is not the issue. 07 Q. Are you aware that there were criticisms from 08 the TEA concerning CMP textbooks? 09 A. There were criticisms with several textbooks. 10 This was one of them. But I don't know that it was 11 exactly from TEA. It was from a review panel. 12 Q. All right. So the answer to my question is, 13 yes, I was aware that there were criticisms of CMP 14 materials and textbooks; is that correct? 15 A. Materials? 16 Q. Textbooks, materials that was reviewed by the 17 Texas Education Agency or one of their committees, and 18 there was criticism of that by the State. 19 A. There were criticisms -- 20 Q. Were you aware of that? 21 A. I don't know exactly who made the criticism. 22 Q. But you're aware of the criticisms? 23 A. I'm aware that there was some criticisms, yes, 24 of this textbook and other textbooks, yes. 25 Q. And by this textbook, I'm asking 0055 01 specifically -- 02 A. About CMP. 03 Q. -- about connected math program? 04 A. Yes, I am aware of that, along with other 05 textbooks. 06 Q. All right. If you have a problem in not 07 understanding my question, if you'll ask me, I'll 08 repeat it. 09 A. I thought I had asked you, sir. 10 Q. Okay. When did you become aware that the 11 State or one of its agencies or one of its review 12 committees was critical of some of the CMP materials or 13 textbooks? 14 A. I can't give you an exact time. 15 Q. How did you become aware of that? 16 A. I don't recall. I don't recall who brought -- 17 I don't recall who brought anything to me giving me any 18 sort of criticisms about the textbooks. 19 Q. Now, as director of the -- or being 20 responsible for the overall curriculum of the schools, 21 that would cause you some concern, wouldn't it? 22 A. No, sir. 23 Q. Not at all? 24 A. No, it was not -- 25 Q. When the State comes in and is critical of 0056 01 materials -- 02 A. No. 03 Q. -- on a program? 04 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, misstates the 05 testimony. 06 Q. That doesn't cause you concern? 07 A. No, sir. May I explain? 08 Q. Yes. Why don't you tell the ladies and 09 gentlemen of the jury why you aren't concerned when the 10 State of Texas looks at materials and concludes that 11 40 percent of that material does not comply with the 12 essential skills. 13 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, misstates the 14 evidence. 15 Q. Why doesn't that concern you? 16 A. When we write curriculum, when we develop 17 curriculum, we look first at Texas Essential Knowledge 18 and Skills. Previously it was essential elements, now 19 Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills. Not all 20 textbooks, because they are written for the nation, not 21 just for Texas, meet all of those TEKS. We have to be 22 sure that our curriculum does, but the textbook might 23 not do so. 24 So we may use a textbook that doesn't meet all 25 of the Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills. In this 0057 01 particular case, the connected mathematics program 02 does, but it doesn't do it necessarily in the order 03 that the reviewers were looking for. 04 Q. Who developed the curriculum for the CMP in 05 Plano? 06 A. Teachers and the coordinator. 07 Q. Who? 08 A. Dr. Jim Wohlgehagen, and I can't give you the 09 teachers' names. We always use groups of teachers to 10 work with curriculum. 11 Q. At what point did you become aware that there 12 were parents who were concerned about the Plano 13 Independent School District implementing a connected 14 math program? 15 A. I don't know whether or not I knew that there 16 were major concerns before there was a meeting. 17 Parents held a meeting, and it was in June. And I 18 don't recall which year. I guess it would have been -- 19 I don't know. I'm not good at keeping up with the 20 years. But there was a parent meeting, and I actually 21 attended that meeting so that I could hear what the 22 objections were. 23 Before that, I don't recall that anyone had -- 24 certainly anyone had called me or had come to see me. 25 They may have, but I don't -- I don't recall. 0058 01 Q. So you attended a parent-teacher meeting or a 02 parents meeting -- was it a parents meeting? 03 A. It was a parents -- 04 Q. Meeting? 05 A. It was called by parents. It was -- I don't 06 know exactly who called it, but it was called by 07 parents. 08 Q. All right. 09 A. I do remember where the meeting was. 10 Q. It was a parents meeting? 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. And it was in June? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. And where was it? 15 A. It was held at Harrington Library in east 16 Plano. 17 Q. And you recall that it was in June? 18 A. I believe it was in June. 19 Q. And it was in June of -- it was prior to the 20 time that the school board had actually voted to adopt 21 the CMP? 22 A. Yes, I believe it was. 23 Q. So it was during -- 24 A. I don't have a time line in my head, so I 25 don't know for sure, but I think so, yes. It was 0059 01 before that. 02 Q. It was before the Board actually made its 03 decision to implement it across the District. And it 04 was during the time or -- yeah -- during the time of 05 your pilot program? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. Is that correct? 08 A. I believe that's correct. 09 Q. So although you can't recall the exact year -- 10 A. No, I don't. 11 Q. -- you know that it was after the pilot 12 program had been in place for at least a couple of 13 years? 14 A. I don't know at least a couple of years. 15 Q. But you know that the pilot program had been 16 in place at least for one year? 17 A. Had been in place at least for some period of 18 time. 19 Q. And it was prior to the time that a decision 20 was to be made -- had been made by the Board of 21 Trustees to adopt the program across the board? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. And the meeting was at Harrington 24 Library in east Plano? 25 A. Uh-huh. 0060 01 Q. In the evening? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the parents 04 that were there? 05 A. I can't say that I do. I would just have to 06 make an assumption that some people were there, but I 07 don't want to do that. 08 Q. Who was there for the PISD? 09 A. I was there. And I believe that 10 Dr. Wohlgehagen may have attended that meeting. I'm 11 not absolutely sure. And one of our board members, I 12 believe, came into the meeting for a short period of 13 time, but that's all that I can recall. 14 Q. Is Harrington a school library or is it -- 15 A. No. It's the city library. 16 Q. City. That was going to be my question. 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. All right. Was it in a conference room at the 19 city library? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. How long did the meeting last? 22 A. I don't recall. 23 Q. Well, was it five minutes or half an hour, an 24 hour, an hour and a half? 25 A. Well, certainly it was a meeting length, but I 0061 01 don't know what that meeting length was. 02 Q. Do you recall it running more than an hour? 03 A. I really don't know how long the meeting ran. 04 Q. Were there any materials distributed at the 05 meeting? 06 A. I don't recall. I don't believe I got any 07 materials. 08 Q. Did you take any materials to the meeting? 09 A. No. 10 Q. Did you speak at the meeting? 11 A. No, I did not. 12 Q. Did anyone from the PISD speak? 13 A. I don't recall. 14 Q. Who led the meeting? 15 A. I don't remember who led the meeting. 16 Q. Was it a parent? 17 A. I don't -- well, I don't know if it's a parent 18 or not. I don't recall who it was. 19 Q. Did a PISD representative lead the meeting? 20 A. No. 21 Q. So it was someone other -- 22 A. It was not -- 23 Q. -- than an employee of Plano Independent 24 School District that was leading the meeting? 25 A. I think so. I believe so. 0062 01 Q. How did you come to know that there was going 02 to be a meeting that night? 03 A. I don't know. I don't know if I saw a flier 04 or if somebody called me. I just really don't remember 05 how I knew that. 06 Q. Did you know that the meeting was going to be 07 about the connected math program? 08 A. I'm sure I did or I probably would not have 09 gone. I went to listen. 10 Q. Now, tell me as best you can what you recall 11 the gist of the dissension being concerning the 12 connected math program at this meeting. 13 A. I don't really recall the meeting well enough 14 to answer that. I would if I could, but I don't -- I 15 just don't recall it. 16 Q. Did you take any notes from the meeting? 17 A. No, I did not. 18 Q. Did you make any memorandum of the meeting? 19 A. No. 20 Q. A report to the superintendent concerning the 21 meeting? 22 A. Not to my knowledge. 23 Q. Did you get the general impression from the 24 meeting that there were parents who were concerned 25 about the CMP? 0063 01 A. There were some parents concerned. I think 02 there were also some parents there who were -- who were 03 not. And I don't recall exactly what the meeting 04 was -- what was said at the meeting. 05 Q. But you do know that you went there because it 06 was going to be a parents meeting, the subject matter 07 was connected math, you were in your pilot program at 08 the time, and you knew that there were parents who had 09 concerns about the connected math program; is that 10 right? 11 A. I would assume that's why I went. I cannot 12 remember if someone called and invited me or sent me an 13 invitation. I really don't remember that. 14 Q. Was the meeting conducted in an orderly 15 fashion? 16 A. To the best of my recollection. 17 Q. Now, what did you discuss with Dr. Wohlgehagen 18 either at the conclusion of that meeting or in the next 19 preceding few days back at the offices of the District 20 concerning this parent dissension group? 21 A. I can't remember any discussion. 22 Q. Did you have discussions? 23 A. I don't know whether I did or not. 24 Q. Okay. When did you next have any information 25 that led you to conclude that there were parents who 0064 01 were opposed to the implementation of the connected 02 math program in the District after the June meeting? 03 A. I can't answer that. I don't know that. 04 Q. You did draw a conclusion at some point that 05 there were parents who were opposed to the 06 implementation of the connected math program, did you 07 not? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. Okay. Tell me as best you can what 10 information you knew about the parents' opposition to 11 the program prior to the time that the Board adopted 12 the program. 13 A. Actually I understood very little about the 14 opposition, although we had tried to have one meeting 15 where we talked. One of the parents had gotten up and 16 left that meeting very quickly. I didn't really 17 understand what another one was saying to me. So I 18 really didn't have a good understanding of what the 19 objections were. 20 Q. You knew that they were opposed to it? 21 A. I knew they were opposed to it, but I did not 22 understand -- and still do not understand -- why. 23 Q. So at least by June of whatever year this is 24 at this meeting, you knew that there were some parents 25 in the District who were opposed to the 0065 01 administration's promotion of the connected math 02 program; is that correct? 03 A. I knew that they were opposed to the connected 04 math program. 05 Q. And you knew that they were in opposition to 06 the administration of the District pushing that to the 07 Board for implementation, didn't you? 08 A. I knew that they did not like the program. 09 Q. That was clear to you sometime in June of that 10 year? 11 A. It was not clear to me how many parents or 12 exactly what the opposition was, but I knew that some 13 people were not happy with it, yes. 14 Q. When did you make the decision to support the 15 administration's movement towards implementing the 16 program and suggesting implementation to the Board of 17 Trustees in all schools? 18 A. Are you asking me for a date on that? 19 Q. Or a time frame. 20 A. Would you repeat that question? 21 Q. At some point you came to the conclusion that 22 you were going to be in favor -- you personally were 23 going to be in favor of supporting connected math 24 through all of the middle schools; is that true? 25 A. I came to the conclusion that I was in favor 0066 01 of supporting some necessary changes to our math 02 program, yes. Connected mathematics was that vehicle 03 that we decided to use as a part of our math 04 curriculum. 05 Q. And what my question is, is when did you come 06 to that conclusion? 07 A. I came to the conclusion some time after we 08 began working in the four schools, when we saw that our 09 children were being successful with the program, and 10 that there were children who had not been doing well in 11 mathematics who were now connecting, if you will, to 12 math. I can't give you an exact time. 13 Q. Can you give me a time frame -- one year into 14 the program, two years into the program, three years 15 into the program? 16 A. I was supportive from the very beginning of 17 looking at a way to strengthen our mathematics program. 18 Q. All right. So you did a -- you told me 19 that you did a three-year pilot program. 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. And at some point you, along with the other 22 administrators, took it to the school board to ask them 23 to implement it across all of your schools -- all your 24 middle schools? 25 A. Yes. 0067 01 Q. Am I correct that you did that? 02 A. Yes, you are correct. 03 Q. My question is, give me a time frame on what 04 point you personally became an advocate for doing that 05 across all of the schools? 06 A. When I realized that the program was 07 successful in the four pilot schools. I can't give you 08 a time frame. 09 Q. What do you define as being successful? 10 A. That students were doing well with the 11 program. 12 Q. And how do you -- 13 A. And that we could see evidence that they were 14 learning and that our mathematics scores were 15 improving. 16 Q. How do you know they were doing well? 17 A. From asking our research department to look at 18 test scores, from speaking with our teachers, from 19 doing surveys with our teachers. 20 Q. Who at the research department did you ask for 21 that information? 22 A. Dr. Priscilla Kimmery is the head of our 23 research department. 24 Q. And did you ask Dr. Priscilla Kimmery for 25 information on test scores? 0068 01 A. Yes, she -- that's a continual thing that she 02 does. 03 Q. Did she provide you with information on test 04 scores, comparing the children that had been involved 05 in the CMP program during the pilot program and those 06 that had not? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. Where are those test scores today; do you 09 know? 10 A. Well, there are copies of those test scores -- 11 of those documents in the school district. 12 THE WITNESS: I believe that if not 13 you, at least some people have seen copies of those, 14 Mr. Crawford. 15 Q. Did you produce those? Did you gather those 16 for the litigation? 17 A. I don't know that I personally did. I think 18 Dr. Jim Wohlgehagen may have. I'm not sure who did. 19 Q. After the June meeting that you attended with 20 the parents at the city library, when did you next have 21 any contact with parents who expressed opposition to 22 the connected math program? 23 A. I can't give you an exact date. The only 24 contact that I've ever had with parents who have 25 expressed opposition that I can recall today is a 0069 01 meeting that we set up with Mrs. Ronni Jenkins. And 02 Mr. Al Kirke was there. And I believe Mr. Kenny 03 Johnson was there. Dr. Jim Wohlgehagen was there. And 04 I don't recall -- and I'm not sure that I'm accurate 05 about Mr. Johnson, but that was the meeting that we had 06 with parents. Mrs. Jenkins left in a very short period 07 of time after that meeting started, and then we 08 continued visiting with Mr. Kirke. And I don't 09 remember if it was Mr. Johnson or someone else. 10 Q. Where was the meeting? 11 A. It was held in a conference room adjacent to 12 my office. 13 Q. What was the time frame of the meeting? 14 A. Do you mean by that how long was the meeting? 15 Q. No. 16 A. Or what time the meeting was held? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. I don't remember. 19 Q. I'm asking -- if you don't know the exact 20 date, was it in the fall? Was it in the summertime? 21 Was it in the wintertime -- because you've told me 22 you're not good at dates. 23 A. No, I'm not. And I don't recall when this 24 meeting was. 25 Q. Was it before the Board of Trustees adopted 0070 01 the CMP program? 02 A. Yes. 03 Q. Was it after the June meeting? 04 A. I don't know. I don't recall whether it was 05 before or after. 06 Q. Did the parents who were at that meeting 07 express to you their opposition to the implementation 08 of the CMP program? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. Was that meeting conducted -- the meeting you 11 just told me about -- was it conducted after the August 12 and September 1998 parent-teacher math meetings at the 13 schools? 14 A. I don't -- I can't tell you that. I don't 15 know. 16 Q. Did you attend any of the parent-teacher math 17 meetings at the schools? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Never went to any of them? 20 A. No, I didn't. 21 Q. So you attended a June meeting at the public 22 library, and then you had meeting at the PISD central 23 offices in a conference room -- 24 A. At some point in time. I don't know when. 25 Q. -- at some point in time. You know 0071 01 Mrs. Jenkins was there. You know Mr. Kirke was there. 02 And Mr. Johnson may have been there? 03 A. Uh-huh. 04 Q. Is that correct? 05 A. Yes, that's correct. 06 Q. Did you ever have any other contact with any 07 of the parents who opposed the CMP program prior to the 08 time the Board adopted it and implemented it throughout 09 the schools? 10 A. I may have. I know -- I recall at one point 11 that I had a telephone conversation with Mr. Johnson. 12 I don't have any idea what time frame that would have 13 come in. 14 Q. What was the -- 15 A. But I had -- I did not have contact with 16 anyone else that I can recall today anyway. 17 Q. What was the subject matter of the telephone 18 call with Mr. Johnson? 19 A. I don't recall the telephone call. I just 20 know that I talked to him on the phone, but I don't 21 recall what it was. 22 Q. Did y'all you talk about the football game or 23 did you talk -- 24 A. No. 25 Q. -- about CMP? 0072 01 A. I'm sure it was CMP, but I don't recall the 02 conversation. 03 Q. Now, When Mr. Kirke and Mrs. Jenkins and 04 perhaps Mr. Johnson met with you in the conference room 05 next to your office -- 06 A. Uh-huh. 07 Q. -- did they tell you that what they really 08 wanted was an option for students and parents to select 09 a more traditional math curriculum? 10 A. I don't recall the exact conversation. But 11 given the fact that I know that that's one of the 12 things they asked for, I would assume that they 13 certainly had said that to me. 14 Q. So while they were opposed and you clearly 15 understood they were opposed to the connected math 16 program and they were opposed to the Board of Trustees 17 adopting that program across the school district -- 18 which is clear, isn't it, that that was their 19 opposition? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What they really wanted you to do was to 22 implement an option for students who didn't want to get 23 involved in the connected math program; isn't that 24 true? 25 A. That's what they said, yes. 0073 01 Q. Okay. That they asked for that? 02 A. Yes, they did. 03 Q. Okay. When they asked you as the director of 04 the curriculum for the whole schools to permit parents 05 and teachers to have an option to not become involved 06 in the connected math program -- they asked for that 07 option -- what was your response? 08 A. My response is the same one that I've given 09 you several times today, that is, that we have one math 10 curriculum, that it's based on the Texas Essential 11 Knowledge and Skills, that we do use the connected 12 mathematics as a part of that program. We also use 13 other materials as a part of that program. 14 Since we are meeting what the state requires 15 us to do, and that is to teach the Texas Essential 16 Knowledge and Skills, that's what we do. That's our 17 math program. 18 Q. So essentially you told them no -- 19 A. I don't think -- 20 Q. -- is that right? 21 A. -- I used the word no. I think I tried to 22 explain, just as I've said to you, that there is a math 23 curriculum. And that math curriculum is based on the 24 Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills. 25 Q. Do you -- 0074 01 A. If we offered another course, it would also be 02 based on the Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills. 03 MR. BUNDREN: Objection, nonresponsive. 04 A. I'm sorry. 05 THE WITNESS: Mr. Crawford, was I 06 nonresponsive? 07 MR. CRAWFORD: Don't worry about that. 08 Mr. Bundren has to make that for the record. 09 THE WITNESS: Okay. 10 Q. The meeting that you had with Mr. Kirke, 11 Mrs. Jenkins, and perhaps Mr. Johnson, they clearly 12 communicated to you that they had concerns about the 13 connected math program and they were asking that you 14 have a curriculum that did not include it; is that 15 correct? 16 A. I know that that's probably what they said to 17 me. 18 Q. All right. 19 A. I will tell you that I don't think it was a 20 very clear conversation about anything. 21 Q. But you clearly understood prior to the time 22 that the Board adopted the connected math program -- 23 whenever they did that -- that these parents, 24 Mr. Kirke, Mrs. Jenkins, and Mr. Johnson, wanted the 25 school to offer a curriculum that did not include 0075 01 connected math? 02 A. I did understand that, yes. 03 Q. And the District's response was no; isn't that 04 correct? 05 A. That's correct. 06 Q. And you expressed to Mr. Kirke and 07 Mrs. Jenkins and Mr. Johnson and the other parents who 08 expressed those same concerns that you would not 09 support them to the Board on a curriculum that did not 10 include connected math? 11 A. I never said that to any parent. 12 Q. But you didn't, did you? You were -- 13 A. No, I didn't. 14 Q. -- supporting the administration line? 15 A. Yes, I was, but I never said that to any 16 parents. 17 Q. But your clear support was for the 18 administration. And what the administration wanted was 19 one program that included connected math; is that 20 correct? 21 A. That was a curriculum that we had written that 22 included connected mathematics, yes. 23 Q. And that's what you intended on offering to 24 the Board of Trustees -- 25 A. Yes. 0076 01 Q. -- and the whole pilot program? And then at 02 some point, you made the decision to support the 03 connected math being part of your curriculum. From 04 that point forward, the administration -- you 05 included -- were promoting to the Board of Trustees 06 that they have a math program that included connected 07 math; is that true? 08 A. Not totally. The word promoted is not true. 09 What we did do is ask our Board to go out to the 10 classrooms, to observe for themselves, to talk to 11 teachers, to look at the program. We provided 12 materials and books to them. We invited them into the 13 classrooms. 14 Q. If you didn't like my word promoted, would you 15 agree with me that you were an advocate for the 16 connected math program once you made the decision that 17 that's the way the administration wanted to go? 18 A. It's an advocate for our curriculum, which 19 included -- 20 Q. Connected math? 21 A. -- connected mathematics, yes. 22 Q. And you were not an advocate for an 23 alternative program that did not include connected 24 math? 25 A. Because we were offering -- 0077 01 Q. I didn't ask -- were you or weren't you? You 02 were not an advocate for the parents' position to have 03 an alternative program; is that true? 04 MR. CRAWFORD: I'm going to object and 05 request that you allow the witness to complete her 06 answer. And then if you have an objection, you can 07 certainly make it, because I think she was trying to 08 make an answer and you interrupted her. Go ahead. 09 A. What I was trying to say is -- once more -- 10 that what we are required to do is offer a mathematics 11 program that addresses all of the Texas Essential 12 Knowledge and Skills. That's what we do. 13 MR. BUNDREN: Nonresponsive, object. 14 Q. Listen to my question, if you would. You were 15 aware of the parents' concerns and what they wanted? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You did not agree with them; is that correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. You and the other administrators at the 20 District, the professional educators, your -- the 21 superintendent, yourself, Dr. Wohlgehagen, and the 22 others, concluded that you wanted the Board of Trustees 23 to adopt a math curriculum that included connected 24 math; is that true? 25 A. That's correct. 0078 01 Q. And you began, at that point, to work towards 02 a meeting with the Board of Trustees where they would 03 vote on and adopt the connected math program as being 04 part of your math curriculum to all schools? 05 A. That's correct. 06 Q. And you did not support the position of the 07 parents to the Board; is that correct? 08 A. "The parents" being certain parents? 09 Q. You did not support the parents who opposed 10 your program, you didn't support what they wanted to 11 the Board, did you? 12 A. That's correct, I did not. 13 Q. And so there became at some point, dissension 14 by some group of parents about what the administration 15 was hoping to accomplish in its advocacy to the Board 16 on the connected math program; isn't that correct? 17 A. Yes, that's correct. 18 Q. All right. Let me hand you Exhibit 1. Are 19 you familiar with that? 20 A. Yes, I am. 21 Q. What is Exhibit 1? 22 A. It's the regulation for the policy that's 23 labeled FMA, student activities, publications and prior 24 review. 25 Q. Now, you used the word regulation and not 0079 01 policy. Is that different than the policy? 02 A. The regulation is what explains further the 03 policy. 04 Q. Who adopts the regulation? 05 A. At this point, the regulations to the best of 06 my knowledge -- 07 Q. Wait a minute. 08 A. -- are not adopted. 09 Q. Okay, at the point that this was done. Let me 10 clarify my question. Who adopted the regulation 11 contained in Exhibit 1? 12 A. This would look as if to me that it were 13 adopted by our Board, but I don't know that for a fact. 14 I don't know that they actually adopted FMA regulation. 15 At one point in time, the Board adopted legal 16 local policies and regulations, but at some point they 17 no longer adopted regulations. I don't know when this 18 came. 19 Q. If the Board did not adopt Exhibit 1, who 20 implemented it -- I mean, excuse me -- who adopted it? 21 If they didn't do it, who did it? 22 A. The regulation would be written probably by a 23 group of administrators. We typically work with 24 principals and other people to write the regulations as 25 a way to implement the policies. 0080 01 I don't know whether or not this was adopted 02 by the Board. We would have to go back and research 03 how long ago this was written and whether it were 04 adopted or not. 05 Q. Okay. So whether it's a policy adopted by the 06 Board, local or legal, or it's a regulation, it's a 07 direction to the superintendent -- a direction from the 08 administration to the principals and to the people, the 09 employees that you have, about how they are to act? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And the regulation that you have in front of 12 you, you don't know if it was adopted by the Board or 13 simply written by the administration? 14 A. I don't know that. 15 Q. But it is nevertheless a policy of the school 16 district? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Can I see it, please? 19 A. Sure. 20 Q. Now -- 21 MR. BUNDREN: Do you have another copy of 22 this? 23 MR. CRAWFORD: I have one other copy. 24 MR. BUNDREN: It's for the witness. 25 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, no problem. 0081 01 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 02 Q. If you will look at Exhibit 1, at the bottom 03 it says, date issued 10/3/96. 04 A. Uh-huh. 05 Q. Now, that indicates that that's when it was 06 issued by the administration, right? 07 A. It may have been issued earlier and this might 08 indicate that it was reviewed and perhaps something 09 changed or not. That's not necessarily the first date 10 that the regulation came out. 11 Q. But it is the date of this regulation that we 12 have in front of us? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And it doesn't have a date in there for 15 adopted, does it? 16 A. No, it doesn't. 17 Q. Now, adopted -- 18 A. I couldn't see that on yours because it has a 19 sticker there. 20 Q. Well, that's the reason I asked you to look at 21 it -- 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. -- because I didn't cover anything up when I 24 put the sticker on. I know better than to do that. 25 A. Well, I couldn't see. 0082 01 Q. All right. So does that indicate to you, 02 then, that this was a regulation that was issued by the 03 administration but not adopted by the Board? 04 A. It does to me, but that may not be accurate. 05 Q. All right. Now, under this regulation -- and 06 it actually says up here FM regulation, doesn't it? 07 A. Yes, that's correct. 08 Q. Okay. You can't distribute materials in 09 district schools, but there are exceptions, right? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. Was this regulation in place in 1998 and 1999? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Has this regulation been modified since 14 October 3, 1996, to your knowledge? 15 A. Not to my knowledge. 16 Q. All right. So the exceptions for distribution 17 of materials in the schools would relate to literature 18 regarding children's programs for nonprofit 19 youth-related organizations located in or functioning 20 in the District may be disseminated in a manner 21 delineated by the communications office. 22 And then it gives examples: literature from 23 the Boy Scouts, literature from the Girl Scouts, 24 literature from the Plano Sports Authority -- that's 25 what PSA stands for, isn't it? 0083 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. What does the PYSA stand for? 03 A. I assume -- 04 Q. Plano Youth? 05 A. Probably. I don't know. 06 Q. Those are all non-school sponsored sports 07 within the city of Plano; is that right? 08 A. Yes. 09 Q. YMCA, that's Young Men's Christian 10 Association, right? 11 A. Uh-huh, yes. 12 Q. That's not a school-sponsored entity, is it? 13 A. No, it is not. 14 Q. YMCA Indian Guides, right? That's another 15 YMCA program, isn't it? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. The Classics. What is The Classics? 18 A. That's an organization that provides services 19 in fine arts to the schools. 20 Q. Special Olympics is another one, right -- 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. -- another exception? School Night for 23 Scouting fliers may be distributed in the fall; is that 24 correct? 25 A. That's what this says, yes. 0084 01 Q. Okay. And then nonprofit organizations may be 02 allowed to distribute materials or display posters if 03 the event or activity is of an educational nature and 04 will benefit students. Dallas Symphony, Dallas 05 Orchestra, Dallas Arboretum are examples used; is that 06 right? 07 A. Yes. 08 Q. So you permit distribution of literature 09 concerning all of these exceptions, don't you? 10 A. According to this regulation, yes. 11 Q. Okay. And if it doesn't fall within one of 12 these exceptions, distribution of literature is not 13 permitted according to this regulation? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, it says in a manner delineated by the 16 communications office. Do you see that in the first 17 full paragraph? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Does this regulation or any policy of the 20 District, to your knowledge, give any guidelines as to 21 how the communications office is to delineate the 22 manner of distribution? 23 A. Would you repeat that, please? 24 MR. BUNDREN: Let me ask her to read it 25 back to you. 0085 01 THE WITNESS: All right. 02 (Requested portion was read.) 03 A. I don't see that here, no. 04 Q. Are you aware of any policy or written 05 guidelines or written regulations of the school 06 district that direct the communications office about 07 the manner of distribution and how it's to be 08 permitted? 09 A. I am not aware of any. 10 Q. In the past, has the school district 11 distributed materials in the take-home folders or 12 backpacks of the children? 13 A. The elementary schools distribute materials in 14 those backpacks or take-home folders, yes. 15 Q. So do the middle school students, don't they? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. Weren't you in charge of communications at one 18 point? 19 A. A number of years ago, yes, but that was not a 20 part of that, no. 21 Q. It wasn't a part of communication? 22 A. No, not what the schools sent home, at that 23 time. 24 Q. All right. 25 A. Unless it came directly through the 0086 01 district -- unless it were a District kind of thing. 02 Q. Now, are you saying that no middle school 03 child ever takes anything home in their backpack from 04 school? 05 A. No, I'm not. I'm telling you I don't know 06 what they do. 07 Q. All right. Would it surprise you if they did 08 take things home? 09 A. Of course not. 10 Q. That's been done for years, hasn't it? 11 A. Sure. I just don't know how they're doing it 12 right now. 13 Q. In fact, you know, don't you, Ms. Brooks, that 14 school children, middle school children, elementary 15 school children typically take things home from school 16 in their backpacks to deliver to their parents, don't 17 you? 18 A. Some things, yes. 19 Q. Okay. And you know that the things that are 20 described in here, such as communications about 21 scouting and sporting events and the YMCA and the 22 Dallas Symphony, those are the type of things that are 23 communicated from the -- that the children are 24 permitted to communicate when they go home to their 25 parents. That's been done for years, hasn't it? 0087 01 A. Yes, if those things fall within the 02 regulation. 03 Q. But for years the PISD has been doing that, 04 haven't they? 05 A. According to the regulation, yes. 06 Q. All right. So for years, you've had materials 07 that have been distributed through the backpacks or 08 take-home folders of the children from the school 09 campus to the parents to tell them about things that 10 are coming up? 11 A. If those things met the regulation, yes. 12 Q. This regulation? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. Now, would you agree with me that under 15 these exceptions, that there's things in here that 16 don't relate to curriculum? 17 A. It doesn't necessarily have to relate to 18 curriculum. 19 Q. To be able to be distributed? 20 A. That's correct. It says that it has to do 21 with if the event or activity is of an educational 22 nature and will benefit students. So it doesn't have 23 to be curriculum. 24 Q. So it doesn't have to be curriculum. It could 25 be of a sporting nature. It could be a take-home flier 0088 01 concerning events that are coming up in the community 02 that the children may or may not want to participate 03 in; is that right? 04 A. If it's of benefit -- if it's an activity or 05 an educational nature and will benefit students, yes. 06 Q. Indian Guides, you're familiar with that 07 program, aren't you? 08 A. I've never been involved with Indian Guides. 09 Q. What do you understand Indian Guides to be? 10 A. I understand it to be a program for girls and 11 their father's, but I have never really been involved 12 with it. 13 Q. A YMCA-sponsored program? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And the YMCA is not a school-sponsored event, 16 is it? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Plano Sports Authority is not a 19 school-sponsored event, is it? 20 A. No. They do, however, have activities that 21 benefit students. 22 Q. They have athletic activities? 23 A. That benefit students. 24 Q. Okay. And certainly students are going to 25 benefit from activities involving curriculum in which 0089 01 curriculum would be the right curriculum for the 02 students; wouldn't you agree? 03 A. I don't understand your question. 04 Q. Well, if there's -- well, certainly the 05 students are going to benefit if there's a public 06 debate about the curriculum which is going to be 07 adopted in the schools. That would benefit the 08 students, wouldn't it? 09 A. That would not fit under this regulation. 10 Q. Now, why do you think that wouldn't fit under 11 this regulation? 12 A. Because as I read the regulation, it has to do 13 with activities of an educational nature and that it 14 will benefit students. And I don't see that falling 15 under this regulation. 16 Q. So you don't think that communications 17 concerning curriculum, and the right kind of curriculum 18 that should be adopted by the school board would 19 benefit children? 20 A. I think communication that has to do with 21 curriculum is beneficial to parents and students. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. I don't see that that falls under this 24 regulation. 25 Q. Okay. If it's educational in nature -- 0090 01 curriculum is educational in nature, isn't it? 02 A. Well, certainly. 03 Q. And isn't meetings about curriculum 04 educational in nature to benefit the children? 05 A. And we would send home notices that came from 06 the school that had to do with curriculum or that would 07 fit under this regulation. 08 Q. Let me show you Exhibit No. 2. That's one of 09 those types of notices that you send home from school, 10 isn't it? 11 A. Yes, that's true. 12 Q. And that particular notice deals with the 13 exact program I've been asking you questions about, 14 connected math, doesn't it? 15 A. Uh-huh, because we're inviting the parents to 16 come to the school, I assume. I'm not reading it, but 17 I assume that's what that is. 18 Q. Well, that -- Exhibit No. 2 is the type of 19 distribution material that the regulation permits, 20 isn't it? 21 A. Coming from the school, yes. 22 Q. It falls within that -- what you just gave me, 23 doesn't it? 24 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, calls for a 25 legal conclusion. Misstates her testimony. 0091 01 MR. BUNDREN: I'm just asking her, her 02 understanding of her own regulation. 03 A. Well, the school district is a nonprofit 04 organization. And so, yes, it would be an event or 05 activity of an educational nature. 06 Q. Okay. 07 A. We are a nonprofit organization. 08 Q. Exhibit No. 2 is an example of what the school 09 typically sends home to the parents with the children, 10 isn't it? 11 A. I don't know that this is typical, but it's 12 something that we sent home, yes. 13 Q. And you wouldn't find any objection to having 14 No. 2 sent home, would you? 15 A. Not from the nonprofit organization, the 16 school district, no, I would not. 17 Q. All right. My question is, is that No. 2 is 18 not something -- you could send No. 2 home -- anybody 19 could send No. 2 home and that wouldn't be an 20 objection? 21 A. Not anybody. 22 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, misstates her 23 testimony. 24 A. Only the school district or a nonprofit 25 organization. 0092 01 Q. Now, why does the school district get to 02 send -- why does the administration of the school 03 district get to send -- they're the only ones that can 04 send something like No. 2 home; why is that? 05 A. The administration of the school district? 06 Q. Yes. This is printed on -- this is a District 07 communication to parents, isn't it? 08 A. Yes, because we are part of that nonprofit 09 organization. 10 Q. Okay. Exhibit No. 2 is an example of a 11 District communication to parents? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And it was drafted and put together by the 14 administration of the school, wasn't it? 15 A. It was put together by that principal and 16 Dr. Wohlgehagen, yes. 17 Q. And they're part of the administration of the 18 school? 19 A. Yes, the nonprofit organization, the school 20 district. 21 Q. And that's a communication to parents about 22 what's happening on the connected mathematics project? 23 A. It appears to be, yes. I haven't read it. 24 Q. And you don't know of any regulation in the 25 school district that would have prohibited No. 2 from 0093 01 being distributed to the children -- excuse me -- 02 distributed to the parents by the children taking it 03 home, do you? 04 A. No. It fits because it's a nonprofit 05 organization and it's an educational nature. So our 06 own regulation would allow that, yes. 07 Q. Likewise, No. 3 is another example of a 08 typical type of communication that the District would 09 send home to the parents from the children, isn't it? 10 A. I'm not sure about typical, but it has been -- 11 it was sent home to the children. 12 Q. Okay. And it was sent home by the children 13 carrying it from their folders or their backpacks or 14 whatever they use to the parents? 15 A. Truthfully, I do not know whether this was 16 sent home in the backpack or whether it was mailed. 17 Q. Well, it's typical that you send that kind of 18 stuff home with children so the parents can read it, 19 right? 20 A. I don't know that it's typical. 21 Q. Well, do you know -- 22 A. Many times we mail things to the parents. 23 Q. Do you know that it goes on? 24 A. That what goes on? 25 Q. Do you know that communications like No. 2 and 0094 01 No. 3 do go on, with the parents, by the children 02 taking them home? 03 A. I know that communications from nonprofits 04 that have to do with children that will benefit them 05 are sent home, yes. 06 Q. That wasn't my question. 07 A. I'm sorry. 08 Q. You know that the District communicates with 09 the parents through children taking things home to the 10 parents, and No. 2 and No. 3 are a typical example of 11 that kind of communication? 12 A. I don't know if it's typical. I know that the 13 District does send things home, certainly. We also 14 mail things. And I don't know whether this one was 15 sent home or mailed. 16 Q. Would it be in violation of any District 17 policy or regulation for the school district to send 18 Exhibit 2 or Exhibit 3 home with the children? 19 A. Not according to the regulation FMA. 20 Q. All right. Let's look at No. 4. Is that the 21 same thing? 22 A. It appears to be very much the same kind of -- 23 Q. Number 5? 24 A. I am not reading these, so I don't know for 25 sure, but... 0095 01 Q. How about No. 6 and No. 7? Just look at 02 those. 03 A. They all appear to be very much the same kind 04 of thing that we would either send or mail, and I don't 05 know what happened in this case. 06 Q. All right. And look at No. 2 through 7. And 07 each one of those is a communication from the school 08 district to parents concerning connected math. 09 A. Concerning parent nights, to come to the 10 school for connected math. 11 Q. To talk about connected math? 12 A. That's what it appears to be. 13 Q. And if the school district sent those home 14 with the children in their take-home folders as opposed 15 to mailing them, you don't believe that would violate 16 any regulation or policy of the school district? 17 A. Not according to FMA regulation because the 18 District is a nonprofit organization. 19 Q. All right. 20 A. And the material is of an educational nature. 21 Q. Let's look at No. 8 -- same type of 22 communication, inviting parents to come to a math night 23 or to a parent-teacher meeting, right? 24 A. Yes, but it doesn't say that it came from the 25 school district, so I don't know where this came from. 0096 01 Q. Let me see that. 02 A. At least I didn't see that. 03 Q. Well, it says, you are invited to attend a 6th 04 grade math parent night. The focus will be our 05 curriculum, the connected math project. Our speaker 06 will be Dr. Jim Wohlgehagen, secondary mathematics 07 coordinator. 08 Now, does that appear to you to be something 09 that Mr. Wohlgehagen or some other administrator put 10 together to invite the parents to come get information 11 about connected math? 12 A. I really don't know because I don't see who 13 did it. 14 Q. How about No. 9? That's another example of a 15 communication to parents concerning the connected math 16 program. 17 A. This one appears to look like -- 18 Q. 2 through 8. 19 A. -- 2 through 7. 20 Q. 2 through 7, all right. And No. 10 and 21 No. 11, those also appear to be communications to 22 parents about math nights or connected math program; is 23 that right? 24 A. I can't tell where Exhibit 10 or 11 came from. 25 Q. Well, do you know that they came from your 0097 01 counsel earlier this morning? I marked them. They -- 02 the District produced them. 03 A. But I don't know -- I don't know where they 04 came from originally. 05 Q. All right. 06 MR. BUNDREN: Do you have the March 9, 07 1999, letter you can show the witness? 08 MR. CRAWFORD: I should. March 9? I do. 09 Q. Would you look at Exhibit -- 10 A. That doesn't look like the same letter. 11 MR. CRAWFORD: She is correct. Oh, there 12 are two March 9 letters. 13 Q. Ms. Brooks, would you look at what I've marked 14 as Exhibit 13. 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Okay. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. That's a March 9, 1999, letter that you wrote 19 to Jennifer Moore at the Office of Senator Florence 20 Shapiro; is that correct? 21 A. That's my signature, yes. 22 Q. You authored this letter, didn't you? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. And in this letter of March the 9th of 25 1999, you indicate that seven families have filed a 0098 01 grievance with the District concerning a pilot math 02 program that you've conducted in four middle schools 03 since 1996. 04 A. That's the date, yes. 05 Q. Is that correct? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. Now, that program that you're talking about is 08 the connected math program which I've been asking you 09 about today, isn't it? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. Okay. At this point, by March the 9th, 1999, 12 you were aware that the families had filed a grievance 13 with the District, were you not -- 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. -- called a Level 1 grievance; is that right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And do you know if this was prior to the time 18 that the Board actually adopted, across all of the 19 schools, the CMP? 20 A. I don't. I don't know. I don't have the date 21 of the report. 22 Q. At some point, is it not true that the parents 23 who were in opposition to the connected math program 24 being the only math program -- or the only math 25 curriculum for the middle schools -- filed a grievance; 0099 01 is that true? 02 A. I'm sorry? 03 Q. Was there a grievance filed because of all 04 this? 05 A. Yes. 06 Q. Okay. And that grievance went to you, didn't 07 it? 08 A. Yes, it did. 09 Q. And do you recall who was involved in that 10 grievance? 11 A. The parents who were involved in the 12 grievance? 13 Q. Yes, ma'am. 14 A. It was Mr. Johnson, Mr. and Mrs. Kirke -- 15 both, I believe -- Mrs. Jenkins. 16 THE WITNESS: Is it Chiu? Is her last 17 name Chiu, Ms. Chiu; do you recall? Ms. Chiu? 18 A. I don't recall the rest of the names at this 19 moment. 20 Q. Let me hand you what's been marked as 21 Exhibit 21. 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. Is that the Level 1 grievance that went to 24 you? 25 A. Yes. 0100 01 (Exhibit No. 21 marked.) 02 Q. And that was dated December the 3rd, 1998; is 03 that correct? 04 A. That's the date that's on this document, yes. 05 Q. Now, explain to the ladies and gentlemen of 06 the jury what a Level 1 grievance is under the 07 District's policies. 08 A. It's the opportunity for anyone who has a 09 grievance to be heard. 10 Q. By who? 11 A. And that is usually the superintendent or his 12 designee. In this case, I was the designee. 13 Q. All right. How many Level 1 grievances have 14 you heard in your tenure as an administrator concerning 15 curriculum? 16 A. As far as I can recall at this moment, this 17 may be the only one I've actually heard. There may 18 have been another one at some point along the line. 19 I've had a number of conferences certainly with 20 parents, but I don't recall another Level 1 grievance. 21 Q. So when a Level 1 grievance is filed, that's 22 the initial level of a grievance. The superintendent 23 makes a decision about who he's going to delegate that 24 to; is that right? 25 A. Yes. 0101 01 Q. Now, tell me -- 02 A. I don't have that policy in front of me, so I 03 don't know exactly verbatim what it says. 04 Q. Was there a meeting with respect to this 05 grievance? 06 A. We held the grievance. Is that what you're 07 talking about? 08 Q. Yes, ma'am. 09 A. The meeting? 10 Q. Yes, ma'am. 11 A. Yes. Mr. Johnson and other people were there 12 as I listened. 13 Q. Okay. How long did the grievance last? 14 A. I don't recall exactly the length of time. We 15 did have a court reporter present, so we could 16 certainly produce that, but I don't know exactly. 17 Q. What do you mean you can certainly produce it? 18 A. We had the court reporter present. There 19 would be notes, I mean, from the meeting. 20 Q. Was the court reporter brought into that by 21 the District or by someone else? 22 A. I don't recall. I don't know whether the 23 District did that or whether it was someone else. 24 Q. Did you get a copy of what the court reporter 25 took down? 0102 01 A. Yes. 02 Q. Is that it right there? 03 A. It appears to be. 04 Q. Okay. Why don't you look over it for a 05 moment, and I want you to identify it as being the 06 transcript from the Level 1 grievance hearing that you 07 conducted. 08 A. I think it is, yes. 09 Q. Is that it? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. All right. Do you know where the original of 12 that is? 13 A. I can't tell you this moment where the 14 original of this is, no. It most likely is in the 15 superintendent's office, but I don't know that for 16 sure. 17 Q. I'm going to mark what we've just identified 18 as the transcript as Exhibit No. 22; is that correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 (Exhibit No. 22 marked.) 21 Q. So you received the -- Exhibit 21 was the 22 complaint or the actual written grievance. Then you 23 conducted a hearing on the grievance; is that right? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. What was the date of the hearing? 0103 01 A. The date of the hearing was January 14, 1999. 02 Q. And then you made a decision concerning that 03 grievance, didn't you? 04 A. Yes, I did. 05 Q. Is this your decision? 06 A. Yes. 07 Q. Is that your signature on the last page of 08 that letter? 09 A. Yes. 10 Q. I'm going to mark as Exhibit 23 a January 25, 11 1999, letter that you signed and addressed to 12 Mr. Kenneth Johnson; is that correct? 13 A. That's correct. 14 (Exhibit No. 23 marked.) 15 Q. And that was your response to his grievance; 16 is that right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, are you aware that after you -- and just 19 to shorten this down a little bit -- you basically told 20 Mr. Johnson and the parents tough luck? 21 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection, 22 mischaracterizes and is argumentative. 23 Q. Isn't that true? 24 A. No, it's not true. I very carefully went 25 through each of the solutions requested and gave my 0104 01 response. 02 Q. And you denied their request? 03 A. Yes, that is true. 04 Q. The fact of the matter is, you denied every 05 one of their requests, isn't it? 06 A. I responded to each one of their requests. I 07 would have to read this again to answer whether or not 08 I denied every request. 09 Q. Well, I'll tell you what. Why don't you take 10 Exhibit 21 and lay it out. And look at page 3, which 11 is the solution sought under paragraph 4. And then 12 take Exhibit 23 and lets go through it, okay? 13 A. All right. 14 Q. Now, do you have Exhibit 21 laid out? 15 A. This is 21, I think. Yes. 16 Q. And on page 3 of Exhibit 21, which is Bates 17 stamped 1331, I believe; is that right? 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. There's a document number on there, 1331. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. Under 4, Mr. Johnson and the parents in 22 their grievance asked you for certain solutions, did 23 they not? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And those solutions are contained in 0105 01 paragraph 4; is that correct? 02 A. In paragraph 4? What are you talking about, 03 paragraph 4? 04 Q. I think that's numbered paragraph 4 right 05 there, isn't it? 06 A. Oh, excuse me, this 4, okay. 07 Q. All right. 08 A. I was looking at the 4 down below. I'm sorry. 09 Q. Under paragraph 5, under the solution sought 10 on page 4 where it says, five -- paren five, one of the 11 solutions that they requested was that parent meetings 12 be scheduled immediately in all middle schools to 13 provide parents or parent groups an opportunity to 14 speak on the CMP issue and ask questions to the 15 administrators and teachers responsible for 16 implementing CMP. Did I read that correctly? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. That's one of the things they asked of you; is 19 that correct? 20 A. That's what they asked, yes. 21 Q. And what did you respond concerning their 22 request for parent-teacher meetings? 23 A. The response says that parent meetings have 24 already been held at each of the Plano middle schools 25 and some of the elementary schools. The opportunity 0106 01 was given at each of those meetings for parents to ask 02 questions of administrators and teachers concerning 03 CMP. In addition, parents are encouraged to talk with 04 teachers and administrators about any and all 05 educational programs and practices to which their 06 children -- in which -- excuse me -- their children 07 participate. 08 Q. And that you read from paragraph -- excuse 09 me -- page 2 of Exhibit 23, about the middle of the 10 page; is that right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. Now, those parent meetings that you 13 were talking about having already been held were the 14 parent meetings that were held in August of 1998 and 15 September of 1998; is that correct? 16 A. If those were the meetings before this period 17 of time, yes. 18 Q. And that's the meetings that you did not 19 attend? 20 A. No, I was not there. 21 Q. Is that correct? 22 A. That's correct, I was not there. 23 Q. So how did you know that there were meetings 24 that were held? 25 A. Because I was told that meetings were held. 0107 01 Q. Who told you? 02 A. And staff members attended some of those 03 meetings. 04 Q. Who told you there were meetings held? 05 A. Well, principals and Dr. Wohlgehagen. 06 Q. Did they tell you that there were parents 07 there, specifically Mr. Johnson and Mr. Kirke and 08 Mrs. Jenkins, as well as perhaps others, who wanted to 09 distribute materials in opposition to CMP? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. So you knew that the parents had attempted to 12 distribute materials in opposition? 13 A. Yes. I am not sure when I knew that, but I 14 knew that. 15 Q. Did you know the parents were told that they 16 could not distribute those materials? 17 A. I knew that after the fact, yes. 18 Q. Okay. After the parent night? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. But did you know that when you made your 21 decision on Level 1? Let me clarify. I want to be 22 sure that you understand my question. 23 By the time of January 14, 1999, when you got 24 to the Level 1 conference -- 25 A. Uh-huh. 0108 01 Q. -- did you know that the parents who attended 02 the middle school parent-teacher nights -- Mr. Kirke, 03 Mrs. Jenkins, and Mr. Johnson -- were prohibited from 04 distributing materials critical of the CMP program? 05 A. I knew that if those meetings happened prior 06 to this. 07 Q. Okay. So at the time that you were making 08 your decision on Level 1, you knew that the meetings 09 had already occurred, because you said in here they had 10 already occurred? 11 A. Uh-huh, uh-huh. 12 Q. And you knew that at those meetings that 13 Mr. Johnson, Mrs. Jenkins, and Mr. Kirke had been 14 prohibited from distributing materials? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You also knew that they had been prohibited 17 from seeking signatures on petitions from the parents 18 at these meetings, didn't you? 19 A. I do not recall knowing about petitions. I do 20 know about materials. I don't recall having been told 21 about petitions. 22 Q. How did you learn that Mr. Kirke and 23 Mr. Johnson and Mrs. Jenkins were prohibited from 24 distributing materials at the parent-teacher math night 25 meetings? How did you learn that if you weren't there? 0109 01 A. I was not there, so I would have learned that 02 through somebody telling me. That somebody would have 03 been either a principal or Dr. Wohlgehagen. 04 Q. Okay. So one of your subordinates told you 05 that the parents had been prohibited from making this 06 distribution? 07 A. They probably did not tell me in those words. 08 They may have told me that there were people there who 09 wanted to distribute something. Exactly what a 10 principal said to me that I recall today is that we 11 suggested that they pass those materials out, out on 12 the sidewalk or outside the meeting because it was 13 disruptive to the meeting. 14 Q. Disruptive? 15 A. That's what I'm recalling that a principal 16 said to me. 17 Q. Now, did you question the principal about what 18 the principal meant by the word disruptive? 19 A. Actually I don't recall that I did. 20 Q. Did the principal indicate to you that there 21 was a riot going on or something? 22 A. No. 23 Q. That there was any violence? 24 A. No. 25 Q. That there was pushing, shoving, physical 0110 01 contact? 02 A. No. 03 Q. That there was any damaged property? 04 A. I think what the principal said to me, if I'm 05 recalling correctly today, is that it was difficult for 06 people to get into the room where the meeting was held. 07 Q. Because people were stopping to pick up the 08 materials? 09 A. I think they were being handed materials, if I 10 recall the conversation correctly. 11 Q. So that was the disruption? 12 A. That the people were not able to get into the 13 meeting. 14 Q. Because they were stopping to be handed 15 materials? 16 A. That's what I recall, yes. 17 Q. Do you recall anyt